A question of authority

If salvation is not all of God then salvation is not salvation at all.
I trust you will respond to preacher4truth's post.

 

Water dude is all by himself on this thread. It seems that this argument is the position that many christian denominations take. It can be seen in Acts that baptism is very important to the christian faith. I don't think this is a works vs. faith salvation. Who gave us baptism to begin with? And if you're saved are you not obedient to God who tells us to be baptised? Works based faith is a presumption upon God that he owes us something due to us having merited it. No Christian believes that. God doesn't owe us anything just because we are baptized. Many baptized people who have this view will be in hell. However, our faith which leads to baptism whether its a required next step to faith in our doctrine or not doesn't make it a meritable action. This is the key distinction that I see. So a CoC who claims Acts Chp 2 showing a requirement of baptism for the completed entry into salvation isn't viewing it as a works based action but an obedient one of faith. Christian groups view it much like Circumsision it shows citizenship. Jesus establishes a kingdom to which its members are marked by faith and baptism. That is how they view it. Its not works. But obedience.
Now the next view they have is that once you are in the kingdom of Christ if you want to remain a citizen (much like being an american citizen) you have responsibilities and rights. If you betray your citizenship without repentance are you truelly a citizen? If you continue a life of sin how can you claim citizenship. To CoC you apostate to a reformed person you never were saved to begin with. However, in either case the result is the same. I don't consider this enough of a theological difference to call the other a heretic. Jesus in both cases saves.

 

And they would all be worng.

Important but not salvic.

Then you have made the point of both COC and the RCC. Finally you see the light. They both have works based religions, for baptism is a work that they require for their salvation or their faith. It is works based. Baptism is a work.
Christ commanded baptism. He commanded it to believers AFTER they believed, and not before.
If you are baptized before you are saved, (or as a requirement of salvation) then you are being DISOBEDIENT to Christ, not obedient.

God doesn't owe us anything baptized or not.

You can say that until you are blue in the face but you are wrong. They view it as a requirement for their salvation. Therefore it is a work. Salvation is not of works; it is by grace through faith. We are not saved by works. Both the COC and RCC believe salvation is by works.

That is false. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved, but still part of God's Kingdom.

 

That is a poor definition of work. Baptism is not a work. Its an act of obedience. Its like saying faith is a work because its a requirement of salvation. Being baptized doesn't obligate God to save us. Neither CoC or RCC hold this view. If this was their view you could then say its work based. Yet this is not their belief. They believe Baptism is a necessary act of faith. There is a big difference and a distinction you need to understand.

 

Jesus alone saves. Baptism does not. That is the essence of this debate. The one position is Biblical and the other is heretical, if not superstitious.

But though thou dost wash with nitre, And dost multiply to thyself soap, Marked is thine iniquity before Me, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah. (Jeremiah 2:22)

Jeremiah mocked those who believed that water could wash away sins. It can't, and neither can baptism.

Let me ask you the same question that I ask those of the COC. When I came to Christ, trusted Him as my Savior, I had full assurance of my salvation. I knew that God had saved me, given me eternal life and forgiveness of sins. Yet, I was not baptized until two years later. Now if I had died between the time that I considered myself saved, and the time that I was baptized, would I have gone to heaven?
You answer, and see if your answer will differ from any other COC member? I already know what they have told me.

 

This is my view and that is why it is works based. You ought to see this. It is so simple and clear.

Prayer is a work.
Studying the Bible is a work.
Going to church is a work; it takes effort.
Witnessing to others is a work.
Cleaning the church building is a work.
Shoveling the snow is a work--do it as unto the Lord.
Singing is a work--a worshipful one.
Praising God is a work.
Baptizing a person is a work.
The act of baptizing is a work.
Submitting to baptism is a work.
These are all works.
None of the above works does God do for you; you do the effort. You put forth the needed calories and use them up as you expend the energy necessary to accomplish the work required. They are all works. It is something that you do; an act.

 

No I don't see it in your perspective. A work as in the perspective of the bible is an attempt to gain a merit towards salvation. Thus not one of those thing that you mention can merit or earn salvation. However, once you've entered the door to the kingdom those things worked towards our sanctification which is one of the reason God saves us. I think salvation only means attaining heaven to your perspective. When God saves us from sin, for good deeds/sanctification (saved unto good works), from wrong thinking to right thinking, to include obtaining heaven. In otherwords everything about us is redeemed. To include those things that we do.

 

Monkey Wrench time!

While Water Baptism is *NOT* a requirement to be saved...

Could disobedience, ie., outright refussal to be Baptised be an issue that could lead a person away from the Faith?

My thoughts are that if a person is truly saved and truly has the Comforter Within...

Then they will want to follow Christ in Baptism.

I have heard that some of the cults will tolerate a "Confession" of Christ.

But, once the person is actually Baptised they treat them as dead people.

Because, at *that* point they have portrayed a washing away of the old life and a resurrection to a new life.

 

All will not be saved because all don't want to be saved. We have free will. Someone explain exactly why Hell would be less painful to Hitler or Stalin than Heaven.

 

A work is a work is a work!
God looks at baptism as a work.
If this work (baptism) is required for salvation then salvation is of works, and that is heresy. It is that simple.

 

Yes, however, why stop at baptism. It is simply the first step in the Christian life. They will also desire to pray, read the Word of God, fellowship with other believers, witness of their faith to others, etc. Baptism is only one work of many others; one command or act of obedience among so many others that Christ gave us. Why stop at baptism? The Christian life doesn't stop there.

 

He can't have or he wouldn't have commanded it. Baptism irrelevant of faith cannot save. You cannot be baptized and obligate God to save you. However, it is an activity of faith and we are commanded to do it. We aren't given an option not to do it. What does Jesus say in Matthew 25? What does Peter say in Acts 2? Just like when we have faith we are commanded not to live in the way of our past deeds. There is a distinction here!

 

As I testified: I trusted Christ, had full assurance of my salvation that God had granted me eternal life and forgiveness of sins. However, I was not baptized until two years later. According to my testimony you question my salvation. Thinkinstuff take note! This is exactly what I told you would happen. Why? Because those of the COC believe baptism must be a part of salvation. This man does not consider me saved.

1. Who told me that I was saved?
First of all it was God.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16)
--God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child.
Does He do the same with you? Does God's Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? How do you know? Warm fuzzy feelings??
Second of all it was the Word of God.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)
--At the time that I believed I knew I had eternal life for I relied on the promises of God, not the promises of man, nor the promises of the COC or the RCC or any other heretical organization. I had just come out of one of those. I knew I had been saved according to the promises of God, and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, One that bore witness with my spirit. At that time I became born into his family; I became his child.
Third of all, there was a great change in my life.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)
--My life changed. Only God could do that. Water had nothing to do with it; not even the water that some call baptism--totally irrelevant. I was baptized two years later. I never doubted my salvation and yet you have the audacity to say I wasn't saved. You, are a very arrogant person!!

BTW, it wasn't a preacher that led me to the Lord. It wasn't in a church. Preachers and churches had nothing to do with my salvation. So much you presume and so little you know.

This is not a pattern of conversion followed in the book of Acts--not even once. You are deceived, or badly instructed. Nowhere is this "pattern" seen in the Bible, not even once.

On what was my faith based? The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. I put my faith in Him and his sacrificial atonement for my sins. It was based on the knowledge that the Bible gave me about that message.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
I heard the Word of God as it was explained to me, and then I trusted the Lord as my Savior.
Little atoms of H2O had nothing to do with my salvation as you superstitiously believe that they do with yours.

 

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--That is a command, and it is how one is to be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
--That is a command, and it is how one is to be saved.

Following salvation is baptism, prayer, witnessing, fellowship, being taught in doctrine, etc. These are all commands which cannot be avoided. Why do you emphasize baptism more than the others? It is almost as if you are prejudicial to baptism over prayer, and yet Jesus has much more to say about prayer than he does about baptism. Baptism is a work, like prayer is a work. There is no difference. Both will only be accepted by God after salvation.

Every command of God we do by faith--by faith that whatever God tells is beneficial for our spiritual well being. However baptism, like prayer or witnessing doesn't save. It is a work or act of obedience done after salvation and not before.

God promises to save those who call upon his name; those who believe in him. He never promises to save those who are baptized. What on earth do you mean by "obligating God"? God is not obligated to us in any way.

If you are totally obedient to God you are not given the option not to be a missionary. The Bible commands you to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. That command is just as important as the command to baptize, and in Mat.28:19,20 is included in the same command. Are you obedient to the commands of Jesus. Which country will you be going to as a missionary?

The commands of Christ are not simply just to believe on him but also to suffer for his sake:
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Philippians 1:29)
--When you get to your mission field tell me how much you suffer for Christ.
Are you going to obey the Lord in all things. Baptism is only the first step of obedience in the Christian life. It is not a requirement for salvation.

 

Well said DHK. This baptism thing was laid out well, it's the coC "sugarstick" as they used to say.

For a coC to come on and deny the things I laid out is kind of funny and kind of sad at the same time. All of what was said is factual. So to deny it, well, we can go with our own thoughts their.

Like I've said, if this were about worrying if we are baptized, it's a moot point. We're baptized. Does not Hebrews talk of this as being elementary doctrines, and we are to mature from this and go on?

Absolutely.

The desire for unity from this guy is blurred by his mission to preach his baptism and it's being, to him, efficacious. If he is looking to create unity, well, that's debatable. We already have it. That's why we fight so much.

No one can bring unity here. Dialogue? Yes. Unity? Nope.

This is not about a desire for unity. It's a desire to straighten us all out, no matter how he dresses it. I see it on other blogs. Same thing, different www.
This issue doesn't stop at baptism, the church sign. It moves on to music, then dress, then make-up, then this then that and on and on and on.

 

I agree it is sad to bring children and new believers up in a way that if they have an accident before Baptism can be scheduled they'll lose their Salvation and go to a hell prepared for the devil and his angels.

To believe such is to completely negate the Love of God and His Scarifice of God's Perfect Lamb on Calvary. Not to mention all of Paul's writings on the Grace of God.

 

That is a very good point you make.

It puts it in perspective. I am certain this has happened, someone dying in the Lord, before they could be baptized. Perhaps the thief on the Cross being the first one.

One funny thing, I had a couple come to our church. Staunch yet back-slidden coC. He argued with me out door knocking concerning the sign on our Church saying Baptist, and went into a debate about "churches of Christ" being the true church. I asked him what about where it says "of God?" He says I am confusing him. Anyhow, I told him, well, "John was a Baptist" and he says, "yeah, and they cut off his head!!!" I had to laugh, but he was dead serious that that meant something for us today, as far as Baptists being wrong! Nevertheless they began to attend services. They turned out to be fine faithful people.

 

I don't see how its any less worse than to subjigate children to damnation and hell if they aren't chosen from before time. To me its the same thing.