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A Saviour unto Israel

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jul 25, 2011.

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  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    First, let me say where we agree. The present state of Israel as a nation is BLINDNESS. Hence, there is no PRESENT salvation for the nation of Israel. However, what you don't understand is that election does not deny the elect will continue in a state of blindess, but only "UNTIL" they are saved. That is the point you do not understand. Elect National Israel remains in blindness "UNTIL" all the Gentile elect come in which means the "Israel" in Romans 9:25 cannot include gentiles.

    Elect national Israel was blinded so that salvation should come to the Gentiles and remains in blindess "UNTIL" the last gentile elect comes in. Hence, "Israel" in Romans 11:25 cannot be the "remnant" or gentile elect because NEITHER remained in blindness until the last gentile was saved.

    Your problem is that you cannot see the obvious teaching in Romans 11. Paul is not denying that the nation of Israel CEASED being God's elect nation but rather she remains in blindness until it is time for God to save her as He saves all His elect as election is always unto salvation.
     
    #61 Dr. Walter, Oct 18, 2011
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    The blinded nation is contrasted to the Elect in the Nation, so the Nation as a whole was not the Elect..Rom 11:7


    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Now its obvious in this verse Israel is not the Elect or the Election..
     
    #62 savedbymercy, Oct 18, 2011
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    We know that the Nation that was blinded could not have been God's Chosen People, because, the Chosen or the Election obtained the Promises. So if the Election in the Nation obtained the Promises to Israel, Election means Chosen, then quite reasonably, the rest which were blinded could not have been the Election or Chosen ! Read Rom 11:7

    What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    This Israel,National hath not obtained that which he seeketh, in Contrast to that Israel which was the Elect did !

    So that Israel [National] which did not receive and was blinded was not God's Chosen..

    Jesus Christ would not blind His Chosen People, but His Purpose for them was to open their eyes so that they may see ! Isa 42:7

    To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    Acts 26:18

    To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    So those, the rest of Rom 11:7 were not God's elect whom He had a Saving Purpose for.
     
    #63 savedbymercy, Oct 19, 2011
  4. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Note the present tense verb "hath obtained it"! Hath obtained what? Verse 5 is what Paul is referring to - the present salvation of the elect "remnant".

    What then has been "blinded"? Not what "hath obtained it" but Israel as a nation has been blinded! Romans 11:25 demands the "Israel" that is in blindness remains in blindness "until" the last gentile elect be saved?

    That is not true of "remnant" Israel? Remnant Israel does not continue in blindness "until" the last gentile is saved.

    This means that "Israel" in verse 25 cannot possibly include the "remnant" elect or gentile elect because this "ISRAEL" is kept in blindness remains in blindness "until" and that very word denies this "Israel" is removed from blindness "until" that point and it equally denies this "Israel" will remain in blindness AFTER that point or else there is no meaning in the word "until" and that is precisely what your intepretation demands - it demands the word "until" means nothing!
     
    #64 Dr. Walter, Oct 19, 2011
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    Thats not the present tense, its the second aorist tense ! Now you doing all this crying about tenses and all that, then give a erroneous comment. That reminds me of this verse:

    1 Tim 6:4

    He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

    The verse tells you, Israel, The rest apart from the Election. Rom 11:7

    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    There are Two Israel's Rom 9:6

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    There is the Israel which is the Election, and then there is a Israel, non elect that is blinded, the Physical Nation..
     
    #65 savedbymercy, Oct 19, 2011
  6. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    So, you do understand the difference between tenses and do believe they must be recognized - good!

    You are right! I mistakenly referred to verse 7 and the words "hath obtained" when I meant verse 5 and the words "AT THIS PRESENT TIME" showing tha salvation of the "remnant" is every generational in nature. Paul proved this with the generation of Elijah and the same is true in his generation and will be in every generation "until the fullness of the gentiles be come in".

    Hence, this proves that the "Israel" in verse 25 cannot possibly be the generational elect Jews as the "Israel" in verse 25 is that part kept in blindness throughout the generations when God is calling out a people from the gentiles. The fact that Paul qualifies the term "Israel" in Romans 11:25 as that "part" which remains in blindness denies that term in that verse can be inclusive of either the "remnant" elect or the Gentile elect. That alone kills your whole interpretation of this chapter.




    No, it only tells you that election has already obtained "AT THIS PRESENT TIME" the remnant according to election of grace during this generational period "UNTIL" the last gentile elect be called in. Then that "part" which has been reserved in blindness will also be saved according to election as verse 28 explicitly says of that "part" they are PRESENTLY "enemies of the gospel for your sakes" but in regard to the FUTURE when the last gentile elect come in "BUT as touching election they are beloved"


    There is only ONE ethnic Israel as a nation. However, within this ONE ethnic Israel as a nation there are ethnic Jews that are only once born and there are Jews that are twice born. The PRESENT remnant consists of only TWICE BORN ethnic Jews as individuals, whereas, the FUTURE "Israel" in Romans 11:25 will also consist of TWICE BORN ethnic Jews but as the greater ETHNIC NATION!
     
    #66 Dr. Walter, Oct 19, 2011
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    I have went over that. Paul is merely saying that all ethnic jews are not lost. The Nation that was for the most part cast away, yet there was still Individual ethnic jews within the Nation, that is no longer in Covenant with God, that belongs to the Election of Grace.

    In other words, in light of the National rejection, that does not close the door on ethnic jewish individuals being converted, like paul for an example.

    So Paul says Israel in part has been blinded, it was still the larger part. This blindness would continue until the fulness of the gentiles, meaning until all elect individuals from among ethnic jews and gentiles are converted, then, in that manner, all Israel will be saved..

    Check my thread " A closer look at Rom 11" Check my comments on Rom 11:25..
     
    #67 savedbymercy, Oct 20, 2011
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    Thats false Teaching, God never blinds the elect in the first place, He opens up their eyes. That Israel that was blinded vs 7 is not the elect.

    Rom 11:7

    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Were blinded is an aorist passive voice, God did the blinding ! Its heresy to state that God blinded the elect. Your heresy is saying that God blinded the elect, then He is going to unblind the elect ! Thats pure nonsense. The Elect were the ones in vs 7 who receive or obtained the promises. With your screwed up thinking, God has Two sets of Elect remnants in National Israel. Thats not True. The Truth is that there were Two Israels in the Nation, #1 The Physical Nation and #2 The Election of Grace A Spiritual Nation !
     
    #68 savedbymercy, Oct 20, 2011
  9. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Why then does not Paul use YOUR WORDS? Why then do you not use PAUL'S WORDS? I will tell you why because your words do not mean what his words mean. When Paul wants to speak about present Jews being saved he chooses the word "remnant" NOT "Israel." When he wants to speak about the nation of Jews he calls it "Israel" but never "remnant."

    Furthermore, in verse 25 he further defines the term "Israel" to mean the NATION that in verse seven is committed to blindness "UNTIL" a certain TERMINATION point for that blindness. The same "Israel" in verse 7 is the same "Israel" in verse 25-26. In verse 27 they remain in blindness "UNTIL" in verse 26 that blindness is terminated.

    There is no possible way that the "Israel" in verse 25 or verse 26 can be inclusive of the PRESENT elect "remnant" or PRESENT elect Gentiles because neither remain in blindness through out this PRESENT TIME "until" the last gentile elect is saved! The same "Israel" retained in blindness during the extent of this PRESENT age is the same "Israel" released from blindess in verse 26.
     
    #69 Dr. Walter, Oct 20, 2011
  10. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Why does he have to "open up their eyes" if they never were in blindness in the first place??????????

    Are you telling me that the elect are born into this world spiritually alive and thus never have to be quickened (Eph. 2:1-3)??????

    If you admit they must have their eyes opened then you admit they were in darkness until their eyes were opened.

    The Elect Nation of Israel is in PRESENT darkness and they "are" now the "enemies of God for your sakes BUT touching election they are beloved" and their TERMINATION point of blindness is declared by the term "UNTIL" in verse 25 and that is when their eyes are OPENED just as there is a termination point in the time of every individual elect when their eyes are opened.
     
    #70 Dr. Walter, Oct 20, 2011
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    Because all sinners including jews are born spiritually blind by nature..
     
    #71 savedbymercy, Oct 20, 2011
  12. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    My point exactly! Hence, the elect have been blinded and kept in blindness by God "until" the time of their individual quickening - thus also for the elect nation of Israel (Rom. 11:25-26).
     
    #72 Dr. Walter, Oct 20, 2011
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    Then you asked a dumb question..

    Thats a lie, the elect and the blinded are distinguished in Rom 11:7


    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
     
    #73 savedbymercy, Oct 20, 2011
  14. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The reason it is a dumb question to you is because you did not read the rest of my post but just jumped into giving answer. If you will read the rest of that post you will see it is a response to your dumb statement.

    "Thats false Teaching, God never blinds the elect in the first place, He opens up their eyes." SBG

    If they were NEVER blinded, then they NEVER need their eyes OPENED! They were born in blindness and KEPT in blindness UNTIL God OPENED their eyes. Likewise, the ELECT nation of Israel is in its period of blindness and KEPT in blindness UNTIL (vv. 25-28) their eyes will be opened according to the predestinated TIME of election (v. 28) which is NOT NOW as NOW "they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKES" (v. 28b) however, "BUT as touching election they are beloved" and that love will be maninfested THEN (vv. 25-27) but not NOW! Now is the time of salvation for the elect remnant (v. 5) and elect gentiles (vv. 12-25).
     
    #74 Dr. Walter, Oct 20, 2011
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    Because it was a dumb question. All the elect are blind by nature, that blindness occurred in the fall before they were born and heard the gospel.

    The blindness in Rom 11:7 is a judicial blindness in time after hearing the Gospel and not believing it. Those jews shall never see life in the future.

    Jn 3:36

    36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Shall not see life here in the greek is a future indicative, so all hope for these jews, because primarily that is who Christ ministered to, has been cut off, they shall never, not ever see Life Eternal or experience it.

    This is the same as those who were blinded. Its no reversal ! They as the jews Jesus was referring to in Jn 3:36, shall not see life ! Give it up, you have been deceived.
     
    #75 savedbymercy, Oct 20, 2011
  16. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Equally as dumb as your statment! One dumb response deserves a dumb response.

    Your argument is that the elect were NEVER blinded by God! That is untrue. Every elect not only comes into the world in a BLINDED state but are KEPT in that blinded state "until" God's elective TIME occurs to OPEN their eyes.

    Likewise, God has KEPT national Israel in blindness "UNTIL" (v. 25) it is God's appointed time to open the eyes of National Israel so that "ALL Israel" as a whole are saved (vv. 26-28)

    That TIME is not NOW because NOW they are "enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKE" - v. 28 But that does not mean they are not elect "BUT touching election they are beloved for the fathers sake" - v. 28 That time will not occur DURING THE CALLING IN OF THE GENTILES but will occur only AFTER the last gentile elect "be come in" and that is absolute proof it cannot include the "remnant" or Gentile elect because their TIME of having their eyes open is NOW.
     
    #76 Dr. Walter, Oct 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2011
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    So how could the Nation of Israel which God rejected be God's Chosen People, when scripture makes a distinction between the Rejected Nation and the Chosen or Election that was not rejected ? Rom 11:7

    7What then? Israel [National] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [Spiritual Israel] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Now both Spiritual Israel and National Israel cannot both be God's Election or Chosen.. So National Israel is not God's Chosen People. Thats why Paul says in Rom 9:8

    8That is, They [National Israel] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
    #77 savedbymercy, Oct 23, 2011
  18. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Very simple, read the entire context! It is Israel as a NATION not as individuals that are PRESENTLY BLINDED FOR YOUR SAKE "until" the last gentile elect come in and then the blindess will be removed as a NATION according to God's purpose of election as a nation.



    The SPIRITUAL Israel is "of" ETHNIC ISRAEL just as there is ONE ETHNIC WOMB but two different kind of Jews (Jacob verus Esau) in that ONE ETHNIC womb.
     
    #78 Dr. Walter, Oct 23, 2011
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    Jacob and Easu represents Two Different Nations. Both of them were not God's Elect, Jacob was but not Esau. So your point is mute and plays right into The Truth I am witnessing to and you are rejecting.

    There are Two Israel's Rom 9:6 National Israel which was not the Election and was blinded, and within National Israel was The Election, A Nation.

    Both nations cannot be the election no more as Jacob and Easu both could be the Election. So My point stands unrefuted.

    Here it is again:

     
    #79 savedbymercy, Oct 24, 2011
  20. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    They were BOTH ethnic Jews existing in ONE womb just as the promised seed are "of" ethnic Israel and yet there are those after the flesh and spirit "of" ethnic Israel. I didn't say both were elect and that is my point precisely both are not elect but both are "of Israel" in ethnicity.
     
    #80 Dr. Walter, Oct 24, 2011
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