abortion/birth study

[billwald]

http://www.alternet.org/newsandview...th_problems_--_having_a_baby_does/#paragraph3

A third of a million people is a large sample.

 

[preachinjesus]

Honestly man, I think you exist here just to raise the hackles of some people. That's fine but this kind of junk adds nothing to the conversation.

I have seen the case files of people who commit homicide that are just fine mentally.

 

[billwald]

Please explain why it is junk.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

It is junk because it does not matter how big the sample is if it is "Selected Sample"...

And, I have no reason to think that "Alternet" has any good reason for posting a truly objective and honest study...

 

[Don]

Here's why it's junk: There's no mention of cultural/environmental factors.

For example, in China, where there's a child limit: What do you think the mentality towards abortion is as opposed to a non-limited culture?

What are the European morals towards sex and abortion, as opposed to America?

It's a lack of critical thinking skills that simply says, "Europeans--more specifically, Danish--are less likely to have mental problems associated with abortion; therefore, abortion doesn't cause mental problems."

 

[Arbo]

This is drivel.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Please explain why it is junk.

I'll be happy to.

(1) The researchers are comparing bananas and oranges in an effort to prove that oranges are round, citrusy, and have juice. It's invalid right off the bat. Yes, some new mothers experience post-partum depression. For one thing, the placenta is pretty much nothing more than a hormone convention in the body. Once that placenta has been expelled, a new mother's body experiences that roller coaster hormone ride. That, coupled with other new hormones that help with lactation and hormones that did help with relaxing the muscles during delivery that still hang around weeks and months after delivery, and the fact that some new mothers get no help, are single mothers, still have to work, deal with issues of poverty, not having their bodies back in shape, get no sleep, don't eat right, didn't get proper pre-natal care, and a HOST of other variables that were not tested, can only lead me to conclude that what was compared is invalid. Women who did NOT experience the birth process and their mental health CANNOT be compared in a "which is better" contest to women who DID undergo all of these variables and so many more.

Where was the control group - the women who did not experience being pregnant at all?

(2) A researcher or reporter can crunch those numbers to say anything that he or she chooses, yet that doesn't make what they say to be the truth. Look at the following quote from the article.

A Danish study published in the New England Journal of Medicine tracked 365,550 women over 12 years who'd either had a kid or terminated a pregnancy. They compared the rates at which women in each group sought mental health care. Among the women who'd had abortions, the rate of psychiatric counseling stayed more or less the same before and after the procedure. But in the group that gave birth, the number seeking mental health treatment jumped from 4 women in 1,000 before giving birth, to 7 women in 1,000 post-partum.

The claim is that the women who had abortions had a rate of psychiatric counseling that stayed "more or less the same". No numbers were reported. What does "more or less the same" mean? That's not a very scientific way to present the findings.

And let's compare that increase of 4 out of 1,000 to 7 out of 1,000. That's a jump from .4% to .7%.

So before the live birth, 99.6% of the mothers did not have counseling and after the birth 99.3% did not have counseling.

Hmmm…. 99.6% or 99.3%. That's "more or less the same", don't you think?

There is no way possible that a .3% addition in increase in the counseling of women who gave birth can be compare to non-existent number and a non-scientific "more or less the same" report of women who had abortions can be compared.


(3) And the author of the article is drawing a conclusion that is invalid. The title of the article "Abortion Does Not Cause Mental Health Problems - Having a Baby Does" is a propaganda at it's most classic definition. It falls nicely under (a) card stacking, (b) false analogy, (c) either/or fallacy, and (d) faulty cause and effect.

Since there was no control group - women who never became pregnant at all, only two unrelated variables were compared. And one was defined as being "better than the other" by the author of the article when no such proof was given.

One variable that I can think of right off the bat that would PREVENT a women who has had a abortion from seeking counseling is shame. Shame keeps people from getting help all of time. And a mother who carried a baby full term and was trying to be a good mother would be far MORE likely to seek help, if needed.

You see, too many variables on each side that were not presented, tested, or evaluated. Two incomparable main variables. No control group.

Bad research.

Poor presentation.

Junk article.

 

[Don]

Okay, I just read another version of the story on CNS News; there's a statement that says:

Researchers compared the rate of mental health treatment among women before and after a first abortion. Within the first year after an abortion, 15 per 1,000 women needed psychiatric counseling - similar to the rate seeking help nine months before an abortion.

Researchers say women who seek abortions come from a demographic group more likely to have emotional problems to begin with. Statistics show that a large percentage struggle economically and they have above-average rates of unintended pregnancies.

Further:

The Danish study included 365,550 teenagers and women who had an abortion or first-time delivery between 1995 and 2007. None had a history of psychiatric problems that required hospitalization. Through various national registries, researchers were able to track mental health counseling at a hospital or outpatient facility before and after an abortion or delivery.

During the study period, 84,620 had an abortion while 280,930 gave birth.
emphasis mine

If I'm seeing the math correctly:
Post-abortion: 15 of 1,000
Post-birth: 7 of 1,000


All things being equal: If the rate was the same, we should have seen 15 of 1,000 women who gave birth seeking psychiatric help. We should have seen 4,214 women who gave birth seeking psychiatric help.

Instead, the number is half that of women who sought psychiatric help after having an abortion. The only reason the number looks higher for women who gave birth is because you have a higher sampling number.

Somebody help me out, because obviously I'm doing the math wrong...because it sure looks to me like more women sought psychiatric help after an abortion than women who gave birth.

 

[Don]

Read it again, and was further mystified.

15 of 1,000 before an abortion -- 15 of 1,000 after an abortion.

4 of 1,000 before an abortion -- 7 of 1,000 after an abortion.

And the conclusion is that an abortion doesn't increase mental health problems.

Because the people who have abortions were already a higher amount of mentally unhealthy to begin with?!?....

 

[rbell]

perhaps Billwald should commission a study that seeks to understand how someone like himself can seem so unconcerned with the murdering of babies.

I'm not sure if you are simply unconcerned about the slaughter of these precious gifts of God, or if you figure they are just masses of cells that get in the way of grown ups living their lives. If you do give a rip, your posts show absolutely no evidence of it.

Man, you need to check yourself.

 

[RAdam]

This is the result when "scientists" seek to prove something rather than seeking to find the truth. This is why I don't buy into much research that is presented these days.

 

[pinoybaptist]

"researchers" do scientific studies and find that too much carbs causes weight gain.
then, a few years later, "researchers" do scientific studies and find carbs actually keep you from losing weight and keeping the pounds away.
same thing with coffee.
when I was young, bad for the heart. so, switch to decaf.
now I'm used to decaf, caffein is good for the heart.

ah, well, just eat and be merry.