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Abortion Is Wrong

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by PrivateWoman, Sep 17, 2010.

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Do You Believe that Abortion Is Murder?

  1. Yes, Definitely

    39 vote(s)
    90.7%

  2. Unsure/Undecided

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  3. Yes, abortion is murder, but it is an acceptable choice

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  4. No

    4 vote(s)
    9.3%
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  1. PrivateWoman

    PrivateWoman Member

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    Miscarriage is different. I don't consider miscarriage to be an abortion. I am referring to abortions that are actually performed by doctors. This also includes abortions that are caused by abortion pills such as RU-486.

    God is grieved at how many unborn babies are killed every year through abortions.

    My aunt had a miscarriage, but it was not an abortion at all.
     
    #21 PrivateWoman, Sep 18, 2010
  2. PrivateWoman

    PrivateWoman Member

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    I appreciate your stand on abortion. I just don't understand how any Christians could think that abortion is not the killing of babies. The bible is very clear that life begins at conception. It is so sad about how bad America has gotten. I feel sometimes that Christians don't do enough to address the serious problem of abortion. I understand completely that some women are not ready to be mothers or don't want to be mothers, but there's a wonderful loving choice they have. They can give up their babies for adoption. I know that there are a lot of Christian couples who would be thrilled to adopt newborn babies. Some of them already have other children, but would like to have another child, but don't want to go through pregnancy again. My sister's youth pastor and his wife already had two sons, but they desired to have another child. His wife had some physical problems that would make another pregnancy difficult. They adopted a newborn baby of a very young mother who didn't want her baby.

    I think that all Christians should read "Pro-Life Arguments" To "Pro-Choice Arguments" by Randy Alcorn. It will help you to understand why abortion is completely wrong and murder.

    Think about the millions of unborn babies that have been aborted. Some of them may have been great doctors to help cure cancer or even pastors who would have helped to lead many people to Christ.
     
    #22 PrivateWoman, Sep 18, 2010
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    And God kills millions of people every day. So should we follow suit?
     
    #23 annsni, Sep 18, 2010
  4. PrivateWoman

    PrivateWoman Member

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    I have thought about birth control pills before. I do have some concerns and reservations about birth control pills. The truth is I didn't learn about this until maybe 5 years ago or so. I have a problem with the fact that birth control pills will not suppress ovulation in women and could cause fertilized eggs to be lost in some cases. But at the same time, I feel that there needs to be more research done. I am sure that in some women, birth control pills do suppress ovulation 100% of the time. But then in other women, I know ovulation do happen even while they are on birth control pills.

    I have a friend who was on birth control pills more than 30 years ago and she conceived her son. He was born with no problems. I am sure you all know some women have gotten pregnant while on birth control pills before.

    Based on my research, I've heard so many different things. I've heard that some birth control pills are better than others. With this in mind, I do have reservations and I am not sure I'd be comfortable taking birth control pills.

    There is one other problem. Some women must take birth control pills to keep large ovarian cysts under control. One of my sister's friends had a huge ovarian cyst the size of a cucumber. She had to have one of her ovaries removed. Because she has problems with ovarian cysts, she must take birth control pills to keep her ovarian cysts under control. She certainly doesn't want to lose her other ovary.

    I feel that a lady going to a doctor to have an abortion or taking drugs to cause abortion is deliberate. Many Christians have honestly never thought about birth control pills. I don't feel we should condemn women who have taken birth control pills in the past. I am sure that some of those women actually never had any fertilized eggs destroyed. I think there needs to be much more research about this. I wish that birth control pills only had one mechanism and that is to suppress ovulation. I have no problem with the mechanism of preventing ovulation. But I do have a problem with the possibility that birth control pills could allow ovulation and then destroying fertilized eggs.


    Several of the questions I think need to be answered about birth control pills:

    1.) Is it possible for a woman to ensure that the birth control pills always suppress ovulation? I am sure that it happens in some women. I've heard that antibotics can modify the way birth control pills work. I also heard that it is very important to take birth control pills at certain times.

    2.) Is there any way a woman could take birth control pills and if she finds out that she has ovulated, she can use another birth control method to prevent fertilization from happening in the first place?

    3.) Why do birth control pills fail to suppress ovulation sometimes?

    4.) Are there any birth control pills that only suppress ovulation, but don't thicken the uterine lining to prevent implanation?
     
    #24 PrivateWoman, Sep 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2010
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I don't think there's a way to ensure at all. And you are right that antibiotics can counteract the hormones in the pill and can make them less effective. Lastly, since the pill is hormonal in nature and each pill only keeps the level of hormones up for about 24 hours, it IS important to take the pills at the same time each day.

    It would be very difficult to know if you ovulated since the pill artificially brings in hormones that would affect most ovulation predictor kits and the sympto-thermal method of reading your body. Additionally, sperm can live in the body for up to five days and sometimes even longer so it's possible for you to find out that you ovulated and it already being too late to prevent fertilization.

    Because a woman's body is very sensitive to hormonal levels. Additionally, since the pill's hormones are in such small quantities, if you take one even a few hours late, it could allow the hormones to drop to a level that the ovaries would then take over. Finally, there is just plain old human error.

    No. The basic hormones that are used to suppress the ovulation also acts on the uterine lining as in pregnancy.
     
    #25 annsni, Sep 18, 2010
  6. jaigner

    jaigner Active Member

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    Yeah, actually a miscarriage is, by definition, an abortion.
     
    #26 jaigner, Sep 18, 2010
  7. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    So you're on the same level as God?
     
    #27 Don, Sep 18, 2010
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    The medical term is "spontaneous abortion".

    The medical term for what we think of as an abortion is a "theraputic abortion" when it involves the life or health of the mother, otherwise it is termed "elective abortion".
     
    #28 annsni, Sep 18, 2010
  9. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    While technically correct -- don't muddle the lines between "natural abortion" and "intentional."
     
    #29 Don, Sep 18, 2010
  10. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >And God kills millions of people every day. So should we follow suit?

    As long as they are not Bible believing Baptists and some Presbyterians? If they are Taliban? Catholics? Some on this list would think it good fun.
     
    #30 billwald, Sep 18, 2010
  11. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Legally, it's called "elective"; don't forget the motivation/intention is the ending of a human life.
     
    #31 Don, Sep 18, 2010
  12. FR7 Baptist

    FR7 Baptist Active Member

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    Speaking of therapeutic abortion, if my (hypothetical, I'm not married) wife had an ectopic pregnancy or another situation where her life was in danger due to pregnancy, I would support her getting an abortion. It's elective abortions that I have a problem with.
     
    #32 FR7 Baptist, Sep 18, 2010
  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I don't know that medically, the termination of an ectopic pregnancy is termed "abortion". I'll have to look into that.
     
    #33 annsni, Sep 18, 2010
  14. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    You are so correct!!!

    Life begins at conception. :applause:

    Shalom,

    Pastor Paul
     
    #34 righteousdude2, Sep 18, 2010
  15. FR7 Baptist

    FR7 Baptist Active Member

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    What do you think about abortion to save the life of the mother?
     
    #35 FR7 Baptist, Sep 18, 2010
  16. PrivateWoman

    PrivateWoman Member

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    The medical term, "spontaneous abortion" can be confusing. My intent for this posting was not to discuss miscarriage (spontaneous abortion). This is natural. The mother didn't try to abort her baby. Sometimes, babies just die for a variety of reasons such as heart problems, deformities, etc. Miscarriage is simply the natural death of a baby.

    This posting was to discuss abortions that are done by women on purpose to kill their babies only. This includes them going to the the doctor, an abortion clinic, or taking abortion drugs to abort the baby.

    I feel miscarriage is off topic for this posting.
     
    #36 PrivateWoman, Sep 19, 2010
  17. RalphIII

    RalphIII New Member

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    Well the subject has become broad and I would like to address a few things.


    A) CONCEPTION/CHILD WITHIN THE WOMB:


    Let's be blunt...
    People, including some professing Christians as found on this board, who do not see the unborn as children or valued as such, do so either 1) out of complete ignorance of God's word and indeed the medical field or 2) they do so in order to attempt to justify their stance in supporting abortions and such candidates!

    This is a Christian board yet only 85% see abortions as murder and let's be clear, we are talking about elective abortions whereas a choice is made to kill a healthy unborn child whose mother is also healthy. Nobody is arguing, as exampled with ectopic pregnancy, some pregnancies must be unavoidably aborted, due to life threatening issues. However, such issues are extremely rare and the percentage would still be very low even if you included rape/incest. I think my research shown around 5% to 6%. Meaning nearly 95% of all abortions performed are purely elective.

    God most definitely places a great emphasis on “conception” as the beginning of a life. Any Christian who wishes to say He does not or He only gives reverence after the egg has attached to the uterus or even later, needs to provide Scripture specifically showing that. Otherwise, you need to accept what the Bible clearly states! Other Christians just need to get right with God.




    Great reverence for life is given upon conception as easily seen throughout the Bible and with women who were finally able to conceive.

    1Sam1 is the story of Hannah who could not conceive and suffered great humiliation for it. She fervently prayed to God until He blessed her and she “conceived and bore a son, and called his name Samuel".See also Gen. 29:31-30:24, Gen.20:17-18 etc.


    At the time the Angel tells Mary she will soon conceive Jesus; She is also told that Elizabeth is "6 months" pregnant with a "son".
    Luke 1:36-37 "Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age….."

    Luke 1:24 "Now after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived…"     When Mary went to visit Elizabeth she would have only been a few weeks pregnant. Elizabeth would have been 6 months or so. Look at the reverence the Holy Spirit shown Mary and our newly conceived Savior.
    Luke 1:41-44 "And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me…."


    Luke 1:18-21 "…Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit”.


    Luke 2:21 “And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.”

    Psalm 127:3-5 “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward….”

    Job 3:1-3 “After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. And Job spoke, and said: “May the day perish on which I was born, And the night in which it was said, A male child is conceived…”

    Gen. 4:1 “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived..”

    Gen. 4:17 “Cain knew his wife, and she conceived..”

    Gen. 16:4 “So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived..”

    Gen. 21:2 “Sarah conceived….”

    Gen 29:32 “So Leah conceived…”

    Gen 29:33 “Then she conceived again..”

    Ex. 2:2 “So the woman conceived..”

    SEE ALSO, Num. 5:28, Judges 13:3, Judges 13:5, 1 Chr. 7:23, Is. 7:14 and Heb. 11:11     etc, etc.



    B) IN REGARDS TO THE PILL:

    Firstly, there are naturally only about three weeks out of a given month in which a woman can get pregnant. At some point during this period an egg will be released which only has a lifespan of about 24 hours. Sperm has a lifespan of about 72 hours. Thus, even if you are purposefully trying to get pregnant it may take a long while as the odds are low for the period.

    The pill acts in three ways to avoid pregnancy, not two. First, it stops the release of eggs and thus none are capable of getting fertilized in the first place. It contains hormones which stop ovulation. With one pill type there is no period. The combination pill allows for a period but not from release of an egg but instead in controlling hormones. Secondly, the pill thickens the mucus around the cervix and effectively prevents sperm form entering the uterus. Thus it prevents an egg, if by chance one was released, from getting fertilized. The release of an egg is really only possible if someone is not taking the pill regularly or properly. http://www.seasonale.com/Video/Video.aspx

    http://www.estronaut.com/a/pregnancy_symptoms_issues.htm
    (Note: some of these links are older and may not be directed to the original article)


    Lastly, the pill also makes it difficult for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus. This is the moral dilemma which has been raised and as that can occur in rare cases. That raises other moral equivalents however. Are we to say older couples or people with fertility issues (miscarriages) are sinning because they continue to attempt to have children?

    Again, it is one thing to do everything you can to prevent pregnancy or fertilization of an egg, but it is completely something else to purposefully kill an unborn child.

    The objection is still possibly legitimate for Christians however. Maybe a campaign should be started to address that point and to introduce one that does not affect the uterus. I think that would solve the dilema for many Christians.

    God Bless
     
    #37 RalphIII, Sep 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2010
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Actually, sperm can live for longer than 72 hours. I can personally attest to that since my husband was away for 5 days before I ovulated and didn't make it back home until almost a week later. Yep - I was not expecting a positive test at all but it was there and that positive test is now arguing with his sister in the den. LOL

    The pill is not 100% effective in suppressing ovulation. Even under ideal circumstances, the pill has only a 98-99% success rate so in one or two of every 100 women, there can be break-through ovulation in the year they are taking it. You are correct that there is a pill that will not allow a period but actually any pill can do that. It's just that pills like Seasonal have you continue taking the hormones for the whole time rather than taking the "dummy pill" for a week to allow a period to occur. These pills are still combination pills (a combination of estrogen and progestin) just as the regular pill is (the "mini-pill" is not a combination pill and just contains progesterone to suppress ovulation when a woman is nursing or for some reason cannot take estrogen).

    It is absolutely possible for sperm to get through the thickened mucus around the cervix during ovulation. Clomid is a pill form fertility drug that is well known to thicken cervical mucus just like the pill but I have two Clomid children and 1 Clomid pregnancy that ended in miscarriage. It absolutely makes it much more difficult to conceive but it is not impossible when you have thickened mucus. Actually, the mucus naturally thins just before ovulation to give the sperm a "road" to get into the uterus but it can certainly get in there before the mucus is ready. It's not easy but it's possible.


    This is untrue since the perfect effectiveness of the pill is as I said - 98-99%. In real life application, the effectiveness drops to the mid to lower 90% range because of irregularity of taking the pill, antibiotic use and the like. But in a perfect world, the pill is not 100% effective.


    As we can see, it's not as rare as you think.

    Does not God direct us to have children? If that's so, how could it be sinning?

    I agree but we also need to be wise with the information we have and decide "Is it right for me to allow a new "life" to be created with unique DNA and a future as a fully individual human and then make it so that the life cannot continue?" To me, it's the same as asking if IVF is right.

    I agree and that's how we've chosen to deal with it. My doctor is a Christian and we worked through these issues together to come to a solution that will protect my health in all ways. We have 4 beautiful children and 2 children that we lost that I hope to see again someday. I thank God that even without my system working at all the way it should, that He showed me how to deal with it and to be able to have a wonderful family. :)
     
    #38 annsni, Sep 19, 2010
  19. targus

    targus New Member

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    I think that it's a myth.

    You obviously think that it is an adequate fig leaf.

    But God can not be fooled.
     
    #39 targus, Sep 20, 2010
  20. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Even in the case of etopic pregnancies?
     
    #40 Crabtownboy, Sep 20, 2010
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