About Baptists - from other points of view

Not a thing Tom, not a thing. :laugh: however I'm the type who likes to see some evidence & all you are offering is conjecture. So with that said, you keep believing & I will remain skeptical.

Doesnt make a bit of difference if we both believe in Christ as Savior, right? Thats the important thing Brutter Tom. :jesus:

Blessings:thumbs:

 

Understand your dilemma here. Will try to explain what I mean, "we come from". We = the Baptist church. All indications point to the Baptist religion coming from the Church of England. The Church of England came out of Roman Catholic church. We came from Catholicism.

As we know, and can see here we Baptist are autonomous, even if belonging to a Convention or whatever. This automatism is also seen in the individual. Regardless of our back gound, and previous beliefs, we chose to be Baptist, and Baptist was formed out of error into the Church of England.

Did we come out of that system because of the Good, or the Bad? The Good can be found in the Catholic church. But can we not also see the lack of understanding in that system? We wanted to get away from:

Apostolic progression, Praying to Mary, and perhaps other things.

We did not believe in One Man becoming another, or his Priests can forgive sins, heal the sick, raise the dead, or dispel devils.

These things would be enough for me to leave this religion.

So in leaving we did Good. But did we not bring baggage with us, better left behind? What we brought with us confuses us as a church as a whole, and within the individual churches.

The Catholic church believes in the Great Commission. Do most Baptists believe the same thing? Since both believe the Great Commission, then why, and what do they differ on? Just who is right in believing scripture regarding this earthly command? Does Water Baptism save us as the Great Commission says to Israel?

 

But there is no such thing as the Baptist church. There are local Baptist churches, but no one single worldwide Baptist church. Indeed, in your next paragraph, you say that baptists are autonomous, even if belonging to a convention. (I would say that each local baptist church is autonomous)

What are those indications that point to "the Baptist religion" (as you call it) coming from the Church of England? Some people who became baptists may have been in the Church of England before, but not all. I don't get what you mean by "and Baptist was formed out of error into the Church of England." As far as I know, no baptist or baptist church was formed into the Church of England. Did you perhaps mean "Error in the Church of England"?

Apostolic succession, mariolatory, and the rest are of course wrong. Not sure why you should think that I believe differently.

Yes, baptists believe the Great Commision. I assume you mean the commission given by Jesus to His first disciples in Mark 16.15:

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
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The difference would be over what "the gospel" is. You yourself gave some examples. Who can forgive sins? Earthly priests, or God alone? To whom should we pray? Mary? "Saints"? or God alone?

And of course, you are right in your implication that baptism does not save. I could be baptized a thousand times over, but if I was not already a Christian, all the baptisms in the world could not turn me into one. That is why most, if not all, baptists hold to the baptism of believers. I am not sure what you mean by "Does Water Baptism save us as the Great Commission says to Israel?" For a start, the Great Commission was given, not to Israel as a whole, but to the Apostles. Yes they were Israelites, but they were not Israel. Secondly, where does the Great Commission say that baptism saves? Are you thinking of Mark 16.16:

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
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If so, it is important to notice that Jesus does not say: "He who is baptized will be saved, but he who is not baptized will be condemned." So the meaning cannot be, "Get baptized, and you will be saved." This is born out by other scripture passages. When the Philippian gaoler asked Paul and Silas, "What must I do to be saved?" the answer was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". It was only when he and the other people in his household believed, that they were baptized.

 

We're not on the same wavelength. I do not look to a church to save, whatever name man has put on it. The Church is in me. If I go to a Baptist church that believes only on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, then that church is my equal. If it preaches any other gospel, then it is not equal to Jesus Christ.

 

Part 1

Then we agree. Every Baptist church I have heard of all believe our justification is brought about by the Grace of God, through faith, without our having to have done a work. It is a Gift of God. As I see it, there is a Baptist Religion, a Methodist, Disciple of Christ, and you name it. The Baptist Religious church is their name, and it is autonomous.

To readily agree with you, but if you notice this understanding was stated right above your answer. What you answered was poorly worded on my [part.

"was formed out of error into the Church of England". Unless it can be proved otherwise we do dishonor our beginning. As we were in the Church of England, it is from there we came. Was error made in choosing? In error we wound up in the Church of England. We are "second hand protestant's", not breaking directly from the Mother church. [

A very good question I should have asked you explaining the Good to me. I knew what you knew, but you were not sure. I pointed out some bad to you, for I wasn't sure you knew. We are having a tête-à-tête, reveling as well as trying to understand each other.

Wife calls. Time to eat. Will continue later.

 

I agree that you don't seem to be on the same wavelength as people like TCassidy and me. In my post 45, I wrote:

But there is no such thing as the Baptist church. There are local Baptist churches, but no one single worldwide Baptist church.
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In his post 44, TCassidy had written:

No such thing (as the Baptist church). There are only baptist churches.
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Your reply doesn't seem to relate to that at all. Neither of us said anything about "looking to a church to save", or about how important it is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, or preaching another gospel.

And I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean by "The Church is in me."

Please don't think I am being critical of you - I just want to understand what you really mean.

 

Part 2 to final

Yes, and beyond.

I'll let Peter answer that question in Acts 2:37-38. This confirms Matthew, Mark, and Luke as concerns the Great Commission to Israel and her proselytes.

I am not trying to be contentious, nor preaching to you. It is necessary for me to know who, and where He is when He speaks to me. As to your understanding of the Great Commission cases can be made for every church that points to Jesus, and the Kingdom. I believe the Great Commission will get us (Christians of all faiths) into the Kingdom of God; but will it get us into the Body of Christ?

Can we notice anything NEW happening in Acts 9? Do we find things no man knew before? I find we in the Body will have our own resurrection, apate from all others.

I can't believe that Peter in Acts 2:36-38 changed the meaning of the Great Commission that Jesus gave to him (Peter) and the other Apostles to preach to the House of Israel. Acts 38 proves that Peter and the other Apostles knew exactly what Jesus said, and what He meant.

 

. Professo,I am so happy I've never said such a thing, but I do understand that a Work must be performed. I see from scripture that man was to do a work and it required the letting of Blood. May I point to Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, also Peter, James, and John? What does Jesus' half-brother tell us?

 

Doc, simple and to the point. We don't always agree but if my view can be explained soundly, you always give a lot of slack to me, if I can't you are more direct, like get back into the Scripture.

 

Dear Christian, I am on subject for other churches outside of Baptist may believe so.

Ill understand if you choose not to answer here specific questions below, but found it necessary I ask myself such questions. I saw a need to know where I stand on that foundation.

As a person of faith with knowledge:

1. Do you see all orthodox churches preach water baptism?

2. Do you agree most in those churches accept the Great Commission to be their marching orders?

3. Can one obtain remission of sins without being water baptized? If so why do Orthodox Christian churches do it?

What in the world are you talking about, eat them? Are we not a walking breathing Temple, and the Spirit of God dwells in us?

I ignore your Mars' Hill assessment. Wisdom cannot be found there.

I beg to differ, seeing you do not wish to discuss the Great Commission, not of semantics (yet), but of falsely accusing of subject change. This is on subject, for the website Salty pointed us to speaks specifically, directly, and firstly of Baptism. If you will allow, you will find under each Baptist, and Baptist Vs. Them headings Water Baptism, and to me this means the Great Commission.

 

Beyond what? If you meant that the Great Commission was not just for the first disciples, I'd agree. If you meant, "beyond every creature," I have no idea what that would mean.

By "that question", I assume you mean your own question, which I quoted:

"Does Water Baptism save us as the Great Commission says to Israel?"
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If so, I must ask you: Do you believe that baptism in water has ever saved anyone? If you do, where do you find that in Acts Acts 2.37-38? Here are those verses:

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
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Perhaps you know Greek. I don't, but I understand that the word translated in those verses as "for" can sometimes mean, "in order to get". But it can also mean, "as a result of". For instance, it's the same word translated as "at" in Matthew 12.41:

"The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here."
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The men of Nineveh didn't repent in order to get Jonah to preach to them, but as a result of his preaching. In the same way, Peter in Acts 2 isn't telling his hearers that they must be baptized to get remission for their sins, but that baptism should be a result of their sins being remitted.

Don't worry; I never thought you were.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you thinking of God speaking to you through His Word?

Again, I am puzzled. (Sorry about that ). If a person really is a Christian, he or she is surely in the kingdom of God, and all genuine Christians are in the body of Christ. I just cannot understand you could say that a person can be in God's kingdom without being in Christ. God has chosen preaching/the Great Commission as the method of spreading the gospel, but there have been countless people down the centuries who have heard sound gospel preaching, but have remained unbelievers. No, it is God Himself Who makes sinners into Christians.

Certainly I see new things in Acts 9, but not (I think) in the way you mean. I see Saul the Pharisee, and persecutor of Christians, being changed, given new life, by Christ Himself. I see the account of the Lord, through Peter, raising Dorcas from death. But neither of these things was new in the sense of happening for the first time. Enemies of Christ had been converted before - think of the repentant thief on the cross. After the chief priests and scribes had mocked the Saviour on His cross, Matthew tells us that
"Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing." Yet one of them was converted! People had been raised from the dead before, both in the Old Testament (e.g. the son of the widow at Zarephath) and the New (e.g. Jairus's daughter).

Did you mean Acts 2.38, rather than Acts 38? (There are only 28 chapters in Acts ).

No, I don't believe that Peter changed the meaning of the Great Commision. But unless I have misunderstood you, you seem to be changing the "audience" od that Commission. Jesus told them in Mark 16.15:

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
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You seem to change that to mean,"Go into all Israel and preach the gospel to every Jew"

 

Thank you JL for what you see in my posts. I say such things, not in ignorance, but to be honest with people as to what I believe. I have been in the Baptist religion since the age of nine. I was saved by the Word of God given by a Pastor from another Baptist church than the one I joined. I heard the Gospel of what the Baptist church preaches, and believed on the name of Jesus Christ, and that man named Jesus is the Son of God. So I beleived the Woird saved me, and not One denomination, or local church. Since there were Two Preachers, from Two different Baptist churches involved in my becoming a Baptist, that other Pastor, and my Pastor were really one in the Baptist faith. Why do we try to separate?

If I am not mistaken I believe I said in this thread the Baptist church had a beginning. However some look to make the argument a Baptist church has no part at all of their beginning. Something endeared us to This Name. But we denounce what that first Baptist church represented, so we are in no way connected to that church, or any other Baptist church.

I don't see how a church can say we have our Own Faith, and cannot PROTEST against that First Baptist that Did Protest. But we do REJECT The First Baptist Church that is our Beginning?

 

Thanks for your further reply. Unfortunately, you still seem to be mistaken in what you imagine I believe. We could go on misunderstanding one another for a long time, so I will try just once more to say what I believe, based on your message above.

1. I believe that God saves sinners. (I am sure you believe that, too).

2. I don't believe that a local church or a denomination can save sinners. (You have said the same thing, so we agree here, too).

3. I believe that I am a Christian (in the body of Christ) because of what Jesus Christ did at Calvary. (I am sure you believe that, too).

4. I believe that baptist churches are autonomous (self-ruling) under God, and therefore I do not believe that there is any such thing as the baptist church. (This is the only point on which we seem to disagree, but I trust that will not cause any unpleasantness between us).

5. I believe that all (not just baptists) who are saved by the precious blood of Jesus are one body - His body. (I think you probably believe that, too).