Abraham Lincoln

Joseph, you are a misguided individual. Love truth, love knowledge and repent from the rebellion in you heart.

al

 

They may, or may not be sinning. I will elobrate, but I will first wait for you to answer the questions I put forth.

al

 

As a retired teacher, sometimes of history, I thought I would put in a couple of cents here.

First, Johnv is correct that Lincoln did not own slaves. His wife's family did, however, that caused a great deal of pain for her personally, to be pulled between the two sides like that.

Second, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are NOT God-given rights. They are given by the United States of America under His name, but that is not accurate. Think about it. If life were an INALIENABLE right, children would not be born with defects so severe that death came within minutes or hours. All martyrs would have been saved as well. Life is not an inalienable right (yes, I am totally opposed to abortion just in case someone wants to misunderstand me!).

Liberty -- an God-given right? Not at all. Through the ages many have been born into slavery, and the biblical injunction is to keep one's original estate unless one can peaceably and legally change the condition. In addition, the type of liberty is not defined. There are a good many things I am not at liberty to do, through physical, mental, and legal restrictions of various sorts.

The pursuit of happiness -- this is entirely worldly. This equates to the most selfish of the 'rights.' The 'pursuit of happiness' has condemned many to a life of unremitting attempts at self-gratification, both of the legal and illegal sort. What the Bible says is that Jesus GIVES us joy (not happiness, which is different) and peace when we follow Him. We do not have to pursue it and, in fact, we are told to seek first the Kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness -- and this is most assuredly not a path to happiness in many cases -- at least on the earthly plane.

Are all governments instituted by God? Of course not! But all are allowed by Him. The only government He ever instituted was the old theocracy of Israel. He uses all governments, and, actually, there is a point to the argument that all rebellion is against God, for if Jesus did not institute rebellion against the rot and corruption and massacres of the Roman government of His time, then we have very little excuse today to do it either.

Am I a pacifist? No. Was I against the war in Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or not? No, I was not. Rescuing other people is a lot different that pursuing your own ends yourself. If we are to care for our neighbors as we care for ourselves, then we are doing the best we can with Iraq, as well as in many other places.

No, we are not a Christian nation, but did you realize that Jesus never said those two commandments were just for His followers? They are universal.

Did the south have the right to secede from the Union? No, it did not. They started the war, actually, by firing on Fort Sumter. The Union fought to save what had already been established. A nation. An excellent webpage concerning this is here:
http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/CrisisMain.html


Did slavery have any real part to play? Absolutely yes. Slaves were the economic mainstay of the south and the essential cause behind the secession was economic -- and this very much included the right to own and keep slaves. This 'right' had already been undermined by the Underground Railroad and the northern and southern sympathies were very much part and parcel of the entire war.

 

Ah well, who am I to debate opinion with lousy facts?

 

I can't believe we're still fighting the Civil War!

The South lost...deal with it!

 

The South shall rise again...YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!

Joseph Botwinick

 

Isn't it amazing that passions run so-deep among our 'southern' brethern? I think so...

This thread is about Lincoln, and in the book (endorsed by Billy and Ruth Graham) "Abraham Lincoln, The Man and his faith" by G. Frederick Owen, the claim is made that Lincoln underwent a serious conversion at Gettysburg. Others, I know, refute this story. What's your take on this?

 

From what I have read (and I have not read the book in question), it is clear that Gettysburg had an enormous impact on the President, but what seems to me is that the impact was more along military lines -- this war HAD to be won and yes, lives would have to be lost, but the stakes were much too high for any more poor leadership on the field. He had run through several generals who were unwilling or unable to see the right time to attack and/or follow through on a victory. It was this which prolonged the war as much as anything. The South truly did have a brilliant commander in Lee.

After Gettysburg we see in Lincoln a sort of fierceness about his determination which was not so apparent before (it may have been there, however, as he was a master of doing the possible rather than the impossible).

As far as his spiritual state was concerned, unless the book has come up with something new, Lincoln's references to God in his public life indicate he was Christian all along, although, as with all of us, only God can know the true condition of the heart.

 

That's what the history books call it up North. What do the Southern history books call it?

I guess it solved one problem. No state has tried to secede from the Union since then.

 

Sue,

In the South, We call it the illegal War of Northern Aggression.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Lincoln was on of America's greatest presidents. However, according to Hernandon's biography of Lincoln he never became a Christian. His wife was a spirtualist.Lincoln has been in the flames of hell for over 100 years now. Sometimes great men are not wise to the things of the Lord.

 

Who made you God, Andy?

The Bible warns us not to judge, or we also will be judged as we have judged. I doubt seriously you want to go to hell, so I would caution you in statements like you just made.

God knows the heart, not a biographer. Best to trust God with this matter.

 

Fact is, if someone tried to break up America and restore the Confederacy, there'd probably be more Southerners than Yankees coming after them.

Patriotism is strong in the South. They might be proud of their heritage, but they are loyal Americans.

 

(New Really Revised Version) 1Pet. 4.5 But they will have to give account to Andy, who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

 

Andy, since you're all-knowing, perhaps you could give us your list of all the famous Americans and where they -heaven or hell- ended up. This would be very-helpful, and then St Peter wouldn't have to sit at the 'pearly gates' any longer.