Absolute Christian Perfection

What do you think they are saying.

I did notice that Wesley talked about a sin being sprung on you like in anger you were not expecting but never adultery.

I doubt if either have ever condoned adultery of a saved person. If you can find that I would be interested in it.

 

They never said "Repent of all your sins and be saved."

Jesus taught repentance as you accurately quoted. But adding to the Word is a curse according to Rev.22, and you add "of their sins" to the words of Jesus. Why?

I don't deny the necessity of repentance. I deny what you believe to be repentance.

 

Repentance
By D.L. Moody
You will find my text tonight in the seventeenth chapter of Acts, part of the thirtieth verse: "And now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." I have heard a number of complaints about the preaching here in the Tabernacle, that repentance has not been touched upon. The fact is that I have never had very great success in preaching upon repentance. When I have preached it people haven't repented. I've had far more success when I've preached Christ's goodness. But tonight I will preach about repentance, so you will have no more cause of complaint. I believe in repentance just as much as I believe in the Word of God.
When John the Baptist came to preach to that Jewish nation his one cry was "Repent! Repent!" But when Christ came He changed it to "The blood of the Lamb taketh away the sin of the world." I would rather cry "The blood of the Lamb taketh away the sin of the world," then talk about repentance. And when Christ came we find Him saying "Repent ye," but He soon pointed them to something higher - He told them about the goodness of God. It is the goodness of God that produces repentance. When upon the Day of Pentecost they asked what to do to be saved, we find Him telling men, "Repent, every one of you." When Christ sent His disciples out to preach, two by two, we find the message He gave them to deliver was, "Repent ye, for the Kingdom Of Heaven is at hand." It is clearly preached throughout the Scriptures. There is a good deal of trouble among people about what repentance really is. If you ask people what it is, they will tell you "It is feeling sorry." If you ask a man if he repents, he will tell you, "Oh, yes; I generally feel sorry for my sins." That is not repentance. It is something more than feeling sorry. Repentance is turning right about and forsaking sin. I wanted to speak on Sunday about that verse in Isaiah, which says, "Let the guilty forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts." That is what it is. If a man don't turn from his sin he won't be accepted of God, and if righteousness don't produce a turning about - a turning from bad to good - it isn't true righteousness.

If you notice Moody speaks of forsaking sin and he didn't say forsake some sin either.

I believe what Moody believe in repentance, so guess you don't believe him either.

 

IT IS CLEAR from the text which we have lately quoted that repentance is bound up with the forgiveness of sins. (Spurgeon)

Spurgeon relates repentance with forgiveness. But Spurgeon does not give the idea of listing all of one's sins and repenting of all of them one at a time. Besides that Spurgeon is speaking to believers and not to the unsaved.

Anger and adultery are the same sin in God's eyes. They are both a transgression of the law--God's law. From Wesley sprang the holiness movement. He would have agreed that lying, anger and adultery were all sins in God's eyes.

 

Then Jesus must of been guilty of something as bad as adultery for you can say what you want but He got angry when He drove them out of the temple. Also, He said angry was not a sin, so who are you to override the word of the Lord.


Moody said we had to "forsake sin" that would be all sin. Yikes!!!!!

 

I wish you would listen to what Moody had to say (as well as these others. You are blind even when you post their thoughts. Read again:

Repentance is turning about and forsaking sin not a list of sins; not repenting from ALL your sins.
Moody uses the word sin (singular) to refer to a sinful lifestyle.
He uses the word repentance in a Biblical way to mean "turning right about."
That is what it is--turning around.
It is a change of mind about God; a change of attitude about God. A turn about in your attitude toward God. Repentance is always towards God; however it is from that old sinful lifestyle. It is from 'sin" but not "sins." I agree with Moody. Too bad you don't. You don't seem to understand what he is saying.

 

Jesus didn't get angry in the way that we define anger today.
Jesus did not lose his temper. He never lost control of his emotions.
If God lost control then God would not be God. You take away from the deity of Christ by saying that Christ got angry (in today's definition of the word). He did not lose his temper--ever. If he lost control of his emotions, he would have lost control of the universe which HE the Creator created. God never loses control. He cannot, for he is God. He did not get angry. He never sinned.

 

DHK; You don't make sense. If you turn from sin it would be all sin. Moody did not mean one sin. He mean sin as a whole. Why do you make something out of something that just is not there. I think you study for the wrong purpose. I have known many like you who study to find and excuse or to be different. You in no way are conveying what Moody or any of the others say or the scriptures.

Jesus said "get angry but sin not", therefore He is saying to get angry is not sin, unless you carry it to hate. He didn't do that but He did get angry. You want to make it into sin, but it was not sin.
He drove them out of the temple. Yikes and He didn't sin. Now that is good isn't it. He didn't lose control, He did exactly what He wanted to do.

Does somewhere in that mind of yours you think you can "forsake sin" and not forsake it all?

If I forsake drinking acholol, does that mean I left all acholol or just burbon? Jeepers what a discussion

If I understand you at all you believe Repentance is to turn from unbelief to the Lord Jesus. I ask you one question, is "unbelief" sin?

 

Bob, why do you think that it says, "faithful and just to forgive us our sins"[/b] and not "faithful and kind to forgive us our sins".?
Surely this is because He is "just" in his dealings with us and remembers the work that Christ accomplished for us on the cross? To think that Christ has not covered those sins is a bit like saying that all Christ did on the cross was to put us back into the same place as Adam. But this is not so, for we read, (Rom 5:15) "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." and in verse 16 we read "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."
Rather is it not more logical in the light of the clear teaching of Paul the apostle in Romans about justification by faith alone, that John is speaking of our daily walk with God. For this is an ongoing thing. In other words John is speaking of our sanctification or growth in the Christian life, rather than our justification.
Jesus puts it like this (John 14:10) "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit".

Cleansing from sin comes daily, although the main problem of our condemnation and separation from God has been dealt with already. for the scripture says again, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." cleanseth is in the present tense. For although God knows already the sins we are going to commit, we however do not and it is those sins that we commit on a daily basis that we are cleansed from. Although those same sins cannot condemn us eternally, for that sin has been dealt with at the cross.

That is why it is so important that we grasp the significance of this doctrine of justification by faith alone, before we can go on and walk the Christian life with total freedom and realise this totally new relationship and fellowship we have with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

I for years could not grasp the power of this doctrine for many years untill about 35 years ago in that workshop of mine. Once I had grasped the significance and the extent to which Christ's work cleansed me from sin. Not only cleansing from sin. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the new birth. Not only that either. But that I found myself in this totally new relationship with God as an adopted son. (Rom 8:15) "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

And I'm sure you know where that illustration of the apostle's came from? When a Roman wanted to bewstow some special gift upon one of his slaves he would stand up in the presence of all the people and declare, "This day I have adopted this man into my family. He is from now on no longer to be called a slave. But my son."

This is exactly what God has done with us. "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear". This bondage was caused by sin. "but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." It is important that we see the significance of this powerful doctrine before we can even attempt to go on in the Christian life. For if our salvation as dependant upon us repenting of even the smallest of sins, then we are lost before we take the smallest step in the Christian life. Well in actual fact we would not be walking the Christian life. We'd be walking our own life, thinking to ourselves. "Oh I must repent of that wicked thought. Now if I take that match, will it be stealing. Or I've just looked on that woman, was it a look of lust or wasn't it?" In other words we would still be in bondage again to fear.

That does not mean that we must not strive to make our calling and election sure by repenting daily of our sins. But the emphasis of repentance has now been shifted from repentance to eternal salvation, to repentance because we are now in a new relationship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. Can you see the difference Bob?

For if you read Paul's epistle to the Romans you will see that he goes even further than this new Spiritual relationship with God. Just listen to what we says. "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." Can you see that? "if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." That means that because we have been redeemed. (bought back)

In other words all our sins have been paid for already. And because of this we are now heirs. What is an heir? Well he is one who is legally entitled to receive an inheritance that is due to him. Can you see the significance of that for us? We have been declared legally entitled to receive eternal salvation and eternal fellowship with God. How is that? Because of what Christ did on the cross for us.

That is the extent of the work of Christ on the cross. He died on the cross so that he might save us to the uttermost. "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." as the writer to the Hebrews puts it.

But the apostle Paul doesn't stop there. There's more. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." That is US he's talking about. In God's eyes it's all done and dusted as far as He is concerned. To leave anything undone, like leaving us to our own devices and vices after redeeming us by his precious blood would reflect on His glory and we know that He will not give His glory to another.

The old accuser of the saints will be able to come to him and say, "look at the mess that man's in and he a Christian indeed". Take a look at some of the great saints in history. Take the hymn writer William Cowper for example. Many times brought so low in deep depression and conviction of sin. Did that mean that he was not saved because he was afflicted by this mental condition? Of course not.

It truly is a terrible thing that a person will backslide. But that does not mean that he will lose his salvation because he has sinned. For we read again, " Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I say again, it is of the utmost importance that we grasp firmly this doctrine before we can go on to interpret these other things that we read in scripture. For all these other things must be interpreted in the light of this great and profound doctrine of justification by faith alone. It is then and only then that they can be interpreted aright. This doctrine is taught very clearly in this epistle to the Romans. John and james etc are all speaking to those who were established in the Christian life and God Himself knows that we all need exhortation to a practical working out of righteousness. But it is essential that in the light of this powerful doctrine of justification by faith alone, that we know that none of the sins that we commit in our daily walk will ever have the power to damn us to hell. Even that verse from John that you quoted proves that. We cannot pit scripture against scripture like this. We must always interpret the unclear by the clear teaching. Also by the way we must also interpret the OT in the light of the NT.

 

ps: Oh let me put a ps in here. You know that verse you quoted?

You seemed to interpret the last bit as meaning that as long as we do walk after the spirit rather than after the flesh then this will apply as long as we do that.
Unfortunately this interpretation is wrong and for this reason. Paul's method of teaching consisted of his laying out the doctrine and only after that would he apply the teaching in forms of exhortation. The more you read his epistles the more you will realise this.

But what is my point in saying that? Well it is this. What Paul is doing there in that verse is stating what is true of ALL Christians We all, if we are Christians are already walking after the Spirit. The next verse establishes this fact. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Can you see what he is saying here Bob? The Spirit of Christ has made us free from the law of sin and death. Now therefore the present state of all Christians is that we are now all of the time walking after the Spirit. We cannot change that,we are what we are. We have been quickened. We were dead in tresspasses and sins. But now we are made alive through Christ. We now walk after the spirit not after the flesh. Or as our Lord said in his high priestly prayer (John 17:14) " they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

 

grahame;
So, if we have the Spirit of Christ and are free from the Law of sin and death we can steal, kill, commit adultery, worship idols etc and we are free from any punishment because we have the Spirit of Christ of which we walk after. As many as are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. You fail to realize what it means to be "free from the Law of sin and death". It means because we have Christ, then the righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us because we are being led by His Spirit and we don't do those things any more so therefore we are "free" from them.

If a road sign says "drunk drivers go to jail", well I am free from that law because I don't drink. If the Law of God says "thou shalt not commit adultery", then I am free from that law because I don't commit adultery. I brought up the thing you keep referring to about "looking at a woman" and its lust in church yesterday to see how my congregation would take it. If I look and think a woman is "pretty" is not lust because I see just as many that I think is "ugly" and that is not "unlust". To lust in your heart is to look at a woman and lust to have her. Well, if you go that far then you do commit adultery but His Grace is sufficient to keep us. You don't put enough "faith" in His Grace to be able to keep us, rather you fall back to the blood already has covered the adultery and therefore it don't count against you. I think His "Grace" is stronger than your temptation and will keep you from such acts. That is the kind of God I serve Sir.

I wonder if you really know what you are saying that because we accept Christ then what was sin, is no longer sin or has no bearing on us. I wonder what He meant "seeing you have put God to an open shame".

I think it is the most heresy doctrine to tell people if you get the Spirit of Christ then even if you do fall back into all those old sins such as adultery, murder, dishonoring your father and mother then it will not harm you then because you have the Spirit of Christ leading you and also you have the "mind of Christ" within you while you commit such acts.

You fail to understand the "Grace" being much more than the temptation. The Grace of God is able to keep you and when temptation comes Grace is much more stronger and will make a way for your escape.

I do not and have never said we don't sin. I do say, we do not sin the sin of death, such as adultery, murder.

Why do you and DHK feel it is your duty to call someone a liar so as to try and bring them down to the level you think a Christian is, when a person says he does not commit adultery, kill, lie, worship idols, dishonor father and mother etc. What is your purpose in life that you would spend it to tell those who try to live a Christian life that they can't live that way, that they will be guilty of breaking the Laws of God and even they may die in the very act of adultery they will go to Heaven. What is your purpose in telling people to live recklessly like that. I always preach "make it as sure as you can, for you only pass this way but once".

This seems to be your belief, DHK said it was his. Well, you can have it I don't want it and neither will I teach others such nonsense.

There are so many other scriptures than the ones you quoted grahame; There must be an answer for them. We can't just pretend they are not there and say well we walk after the Spirit therefore they don't mean us. We are special and we can commit those things. I can't believe you fellows, that you would not only do it yourselves, (if you do) but teach others to do the same.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (READ CAREFULLY, THE LORD FELT IT NECESSARY TO PUT THIS ONE IN JUST FOR YOU AND DHK)

16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

I was just thinking, but the few people I've seen on here who believed in chrisitans being perfect, without sin, weren't calvinists. Of course as far as they were concerned, not being calvinists, their salvation depended on being perfect.

 

A classic battle between grace, offered through the "Blood of the Lamb" to all men who believe, and compliance to that particular portion of "The Law" that you are inclined to at the moment.

The Law was done away with, Praise the Lord, and we are now under His abundant Grace where there is no question of salvation, to them that believe.

 

Personally, I'm kinda' glad the Holy Spirit did not have Moody, Wesley, Calvin, Spurgeon, Arminius, Origen, Augustine, Scofield, Rick Warren, Brother Bob, BobRyan, DHK or EdSutton, just to name a handful, write any of the Scriptures.

Ed

 

Another "cop out". No one says we are perfect. As a matter of fact we say over and over that we sin, but we do not commit adultery, kill, etc. You use the "perfect" theory as a cop out of not wanting to say you can commit adultery while having the "mind of Christ".

If all of you see a bunch of people and they are drunk, living in adultery, lying, killing and someone says "Those are born again Christians", what would you say?

15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. You do not accept the word

of God.


1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


Would the part "such were some of you; but you were washed" fit all of you and if so how can you say you go back to it?

 

Why not quote the rest of it where Grace is much more abundant than the temptation and able to keep you and make a way for your escape, where you don't do those things.
You advocate the sin is much stronger than the Grace of God. Is God's Grace so weak that it cannot deliver you blameless.

 

You use my quote, but your reply doesn't fit that.
First, I have never said I was perfect, without sin, but there are those on here who have said they do not sin, and that once your saved you do not sin anymore, and if you do you aren't a christian.
A cop out, yes, but not my cop out.

 

I just say you are not saved if you are of the following.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Sure we sin but not the above sins. His "Grace" is sufficient and even becomes stronger and stronger as needed to keep us from such acts.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

Brother Bob -

Are you arguing that we should obey as in "really obey"?? 1John 3:7

7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;


In Christ,

Bob

 

This is a division between the sacred and profane sins.

In other words we would tell a prostitute who starts attending church "you must GET THE VICTORY woman" and by that we don't mean "a little less prostitution with each year that passes by".

We would tell the mass murderer "you must GET THE VICTORY sir" and by that we don't mean "a little less mass murder as each year passes by".

Same with child abusers, wife beaters etc.

Partial - "somewhat improved" victories year by year -- are not acceptable.

And you seem to be addressing something to that point.

By contrast when someone has a problem with the "soft" sins - the sacred-violations like "coveting" or "pride" or "gossiping" or ... we DO accept a "gradual improvement" year by year and hold them in good standing.

Question - is that valid?

In Christ,

Bob