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Academic Qualifications of ETS Members Seeking Teaching Positions, #1

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by UZThD, Apr 2, 2005.

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  1. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    ETS=The Evangelical Theological Society. This Society has several thousand members. The basic academic qualification for membership is the USA sort of ThM, but students w-out the ThM may join. The ETS holds annual regional and general meetings wherein papers are read. It also has a scholarly quarterly Theological Journal and puts out an annual Newsletter.

    ETS members who are doc students, and other members seeking teaching positions, may freely advertise their availability in the ETS Newsletter.

    As on Baptist Board from time to time it is asked what academic qualifications are suitable for college/seminary teaching, I thought it might be helpful to solicit some observations from data about those who are preparing to teach. I'm aware that some here have little interest in how Evangelicals are being prepared.

    Needless to say, no one on this list is getting an unaccredited doc.

    As I have Newsletters from several years, and as the lists of those seeking such work are long, and as various points might be made from these lists, I will begin small, and if there is interest, widen my observations from these data.

    So, here is an initial observation from the 2005 Newsletter re:

    What Sort of Doctorates Are Those Seeking Faculty Positions Getting, And What Is Their Highest Master's Degree?

    66 doc degrees are being earned (or have been earned) by these who seek faculty positions and list in the '05 Newsletter. Of these 66 docs there are :

    60 PhDs

    2 DMins ( one of these ETS members also had the PhD)

    1 D.Phil. ( as PhD diff nomenclature)

    1 D.Th. (as ThD , diff nomenclature)

    2 Th.D.s

    Of course the fact that few US schools even offer ThDs now may contribute to this datum.


    In regard to the highest ( in terms of duration) masters listed by those getting docs, we find this :

    26 ThM/STMs

    22 MDivs

    12 MA, MATS, MSt.s

    (1 BA !!!)

    (others unlisted)

    There are variables here as some schools requiring the ThM as a prereq and the possibility of beginning the PhD in "foreign" schools with the MA only.

    So, next time, if there is interest, I'll break down the data as to where the docs are being obtained by these aspiring to teach.
     
    #1 UZThD, Apr 2, 2005
  2. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    UZTHD,

    By the way, when do you graduate?

    It would be of interest to me personally to know what different PhD disciplines are represented?

    Many who visit the BB are young and stuggling with what to do academically in order to teach sem or college. They may want to know which degree field is open more than others and which may not be as open.

    I talked with a brother the other day off-board and recommended that he do something to set himself apart from the "pack." Do an extra masters like the ThM, do a cognate masters at a secular university, do some sort of cognate specialty in the PhD work, or do a PhD from a secular university like some of the "big gun" SBC folk have done.

    Remember too these three things if you want to study and do groundbreaking work academic work:

    1. Pick an outstanding school where you can study even if it is not necessarily an Evangelical school. One might choose Vanderbilt or Emory or Baylor or such.

    2. Pick a topic, if one can be identified, that has not been studied before. Write and research with the topic in mind. Make all of the doctoral seminars be a chapter in the end product while researching. Then the student can "pick and choose" a bit to shop for a mentor/scholar who is willing to take on the student and his project.

    3.Pick an outstanding scholar in a particular field that would be willing to take you on and train you.

    Anyone of these three coupled with the fact that the young aspirant prof has made himself or herself different will surely make a difference in the long term as far as hiring is concerned.

    Take it from me, it is harder to get into the teaching trade than it is to change teaching positions after you get in. After, you get into it, then one can write, research, "publish," or "perish" as one wants (or the institution requires). The initial "getting in" is really the hard part.

    Call, the sovereignty of God, drive, motivation, being at the "right place at the right time," having well-placed frineds, etc. all have something to do with the person and the process.

    I would recommend that the student do the MDiv and do it at an accredited institution both RA and ATS. This has been discussed at length on other BB threads.

    I for one have done many of those things that I advise. It is NOT the short route. But, if I had not done most of the above I would not have a "teaching gig" now. And, I would not have been under the discipline that I personally needed.

    Dialogue welcome!!

    Whatdayathink!!??

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #2 Rhetorician, Apr 2, 2005
  3. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    As one who wishes to teach, I like your suggestions:


    1. Pick an outstanding school where you can study even if it is not necessarily an Evangelical school. One might choose Vanderbilt or Emory or Baylor or such.

    ==I have personally thought about Duke or Chapel Hill. I plan on finishing my MA at Liberty, doing at MDiv at Liberty, as well as a ThM at Liberty (or Southeastern). The PhD is still an open question. Under the best situation I would love to attend New Orleans and get a PhD in New Testament Textual Studies. To prepare for that I may follow my ThM with some study at Duke or Chapel Hill (or another school like that). If the best situation does not unfold I will look elsewhere for a PhD in New Testament or Biblical Studies.
    ____________________

    2. Pick a topic, if one can be identified, that has not been studied before. Write and research with the topic in mind. Make all of the doctoral seminars be a chapter in the end product while researching. Then the student can "pick and choose" a bit to shop for a mentor/scholar who is willing to take on the student and his project.

    ==I already have that covered. While it is not a topic that is all together new, it is one that I am highly interested in. My main study interest is the historical Jesus with a focus on the nativity and the historical events and textual issues surrounding that. I suppose, somewhere in there, there is a good doctoral project/dissertation.

    ______________________________


    3.Pick an outstanding scholar in a particular field that would be willing to take you on and train you.

    ==Almost done, I guess. This is important because it gives you the ability to "bounce" your conclusions off of.
    ________________

    "Take it from me, it is harder to get into the teaching trade than it is to change teaching positions after you get in."

    ==This is true. However I am not "above" teaching at a community college, secular university, or any place else. Getting into the seminaries (etc) is very difficult however if that is what God has called someone to do, if they are obedient, it will happen.
     
    #3 Martin, Apr 2, 2005
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    When I was a student at SWBTS the average time that the professors pastored was 10 years. Why should anyone be teaching others to be pastors when they have not? I was told that if I wanted to teach or pastor they recommend a person come from a different major than Bible or theology and have worked in the real world for awhile. Personally I found it made a diference. Some of the troublemakers who were lazy could not tell me I did not know what it was like to be in business or work a secular job. I knew both well. People that want to grow appreciate it when they know the pastor has lived in the real world and lived for Christ.
     
    #4 gb93433, Apr 2, 2005
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Why should any professors of any seminaries not be pastors?

    Why is a PhD more important than ministry?

    gb, help me out! How do I say that in Greek?
     
    #5 El_Guero, Apr 2, 2005
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Martin

    UNC-Chapel Hill has B Metzger's premier (former) student.

    He ain't gonna be easy ... and he might not be very conservative ...
     
    #6 El_Guero, Apr 2, 2005
  7. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    "Why should any professors of any seminaries not be pastors?"

    ==Because not everyone who is called to teach is also called to be a pastor. I see them as seperate callings/rolls. Sure a preacher should be a teacher, but not all professors are pastors. Personally I would be a horrible pastor. I know God has not called me to that so I dare never go in that direction. I have heard it said that failed preachers become seminary professors, and maybe there is some truth to that. Be that as it may I know where God has called me and I am heading in that direction. If a seminary will not hire me because I have not been a pastor (or because I am not married) then I know that is not where God wants me to go (it is that simple). Like I said above, however, I am not restricted to seminaries. There are Christian and secular Universities as well.

    ________________________

    "UNC-Chapel Hill has B Metzger's premier (former) student.

    He ain't gonna be easy ... and he might not be very conservative ..."

    ==I recently read a book by Metzger. It was interesting. I agreed with alot of what he had to say, but there was plenty I disagreed with as well. Preparing for an academic calling means studying under all kinds of people (the good and the bad). I will just have to learn to keep my big mouth shut...

    Martin
     
    #7 Martin, Apr 2, 2005
  8. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    mmm ...

    How so?
     
    #8 El_Guero, Apr 2, 2005
  9. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    How so? </font>[/QUOTE]A professor at a University or College is mainly an academic calling. Even if they are teaching theology, church history, etc, it is a academic calling. In a seminary or Bible college there are positions that are simular in that they are mainly academic. Systematic Theology, Church History, Textual Studies (etc) are mainly academic fields. Sure it does not hurt to have some sort of pastoral experience, but in those fields it cannot be said to be a requirment. Now if we are talking about teaching ministry classes that is a different issue. Those are practical courses that require the professor to have practical experience. The academic courses/fields require the professor to have academic experience (ie...a PhD, research, etc).

    Therefore the professor is not always a preacher (though he can be). One is mainly academic, the other is mainly practical (though there should be a mixture of each in the other).

    Certainly you can see that there are fine seminary professors who would not be good in the pulpit?

    Martin.
     
    #9 Martin, Apr 2, 2005
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Whom is calling whom?
     
    #10 El_Guero, Apr 2, 2005
  11. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    "Whom is calling whom? "

    I'm sorry, but are you going to respond to what I have said? The calling is, of course, from God. Each person is called to a profession. Some to be preachers and missionaries, others teachers, doctors, etc.

    Martin.
     
    #11 Martin, Apr 3, 2005
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Martin,

    I did respond. Interestingly enough. What biblical support is there for your statement?

    Interesting statement. Of course, it is more interesting that you believe that statement.
     
    #12 El_Guero, Apr 3, 2005
  13. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    I did respond. Interestingly enough. What biblical support is there for your statement?

    Interesting statement. Of course, it is more interesting that you believe that statement.     </font>[/QUOTE]===


    El Guero

    Would you help me to understand your position?

    Are you saying that those who in the apostolic age ( and I am not necessarily wholly a cessationist) were given the various gifts or offices listed in Acts, 1 Cor 11, 12, and Rom 12 and elsewhere all needed to have what we today would call experience being pastors in local churches in order to do what God gifted them to do?

    So, eg, Agabus , Philip's daughters , Luke who traveled with Paul as a missionary , the women prophesying in 1 Cor 11, and users of tongues in 12, and those who are said to speak "by revelation" all had experience as pastors of local churches?

    And more particularly, in Eph 4 we have the phrase "pastors AND teachers." Are you saying that these are one "calling" or "office" ? Or in Acts 12 ( I hope--- do not have my Bible here) when Paul was first called as an apostle and it says that there were there " prophets and teachers" would you say that Paul and his peers there in Antioch (was it ?) all had experience as pastors of local churches?


    BTW, at Western Seminary the prof of Hebrew grammar and beginning Hebrew exegesis was a talented woman with no pastoral experience. IYO was Western wrong to hire her for that position?

    Sorry to burden you with questions, but IYO would it be wrong for one to write in Theological Journals about Systematics or Church History issues or to do a book on the exposition of a Biblical Book unless that one had pastoral experience?

    Thanks,

    Bill G.


    2)

    [ April 03, 2005, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
     
    #13 UZThD, Apr 3, 2005
  14. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    #14 UZThD, Apr 3, 2005
  15. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    "I did respond. Interestingly enough. What biblical support is there for your statement?"

    ==Really? Where? Biblical support. Well last time I looked through my Bible there were people who were called to be Kings (David, etc) there were people who were called to be apostles (Paul, etc) and there were people who were given various gifts (apostles, prophets, teachers, helpers, administrators, etc)

    _______________________

    Each person is called to a profession. Interesting statement. Of course, it is more interesting that you believe that statement.

    ==Are you denying that a Christian who is a heart surgeon is called to that profession? Are you denying that a christian who is a policman is called to that profession? Do you really believe God only calls people to be pastors? And where is your Biblical support for the idea that one cannot teach without being a pastor? Do you not realize that some have the gift of teaching and do not have the gift of being a pastor (which would include teaching, preaching or prophet)?

    What about all of the great seminary profs (men and women) who have not been pastors? Did God not call them?

    Martin.
     
    #15 Martin, Apr 3, 2005
  16. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    UZ,

    Are you teaching somewhere now?

    Where did you get your doctorate? Would you go there again?

    It seems like OT/Hebrew might be the route to get one's foot in the door. What do you think?
     
    #16 Paul33, Apr 3, 2005
  17. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    ===

    Hi Paul

    I've only had two opportunities to bring one half day lectures at an RA seminary. I would like to gratuitously teach wherever I can. I'm on a teacher pension and SS retirement now, so wish to GIVE my time. Also, I want to write.

    My ThM is from Western Conservative Baptist Seminary in Portland, Or. in Biblical Studies and the ThD is from UNIZUL in Sytematic Theology (hence UZTHD [​IMG] ). UNIZUL is a public South African University.

    Would I "go" to UNIZUL again? Given my present circumstance of being an old man with not much money and being unable to do a two year residency -yes!! UNIZUL offers the doc by distance ed very reasonably (about $2500) , yet is the equivalent of regional accreditation.

    But, IF I were young I more likely would do a doc in the US at something like Dallas or TEDS. I messed up in '68 after I got the MA in Theology from Point Loma Nazarene and drifted away from Him. (NOT that school's fault!!!) When I woke up, I was already old!

    I'd encourage the young to get the best training they can.

    In regard to what area one should do his/her doc in, my experience is that one MUST have a huge interest in the area of study to succeed. I'd recommend studying what "you really dig" (under God that is)NOT what is most likely to get you a job.
     
    #17 UZThD, Apr 3, 2005
  18. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    UZThD

    Sounds like you would want others to put words in your mouth ...
     
    #18 El_Guero, Apr 3, 2005
  19. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Martin,

    Said what I meant and meant what I said.
     
    #19 El_Guero, Apr 3, 2005
  20. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    "Said what I meant and meant what I said. "

    ==Is that your reply to my response and questions? You stated a position, can you back it up with facts and Scripture?

    Martin.
     
    #20 Martin, Apr 3, 2005
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