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Featured Acts 10 - Cornelius - Question - Continued

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by LaGrange, Nov 9, 2022.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 2:5, ". . . And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; . . ."
    2 Peter 3:6, ". . . Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: . . ."

    Noah and his family were literally saved from the world that was by the water.

    "Immersion" is a literal translation. "Baptize" is a transliteration.
     
  2. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    I still don’t understand your interpretation. You quoted verses but you didn’t really explain. Maybe you can say more.

    No. The verse doesn’t say how it was done. No one else interprets it that way except your one version. Do you believe immersion does anything?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The ark saved them from the disruction of the water. But what did the water do to save them how?
    ". . . eight souls were saved by water. . . ."
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Verse 38, the word used, ". . . εβαπτισεν . . . ." ebaptisen.
    Tradition transliterates, ". . . baptized . . . ." The Orthodox churches which read the Greek, they immerse. And immerse the babies too.
     
  5. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    It flooded the world.
     
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  6. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    I don’t have a problem with Baptism of Immersion. I’ve said that before. I understand what you are saying. You are saying that the meaning of the word Baptism is Immersion, therefore, Immersion is the way the eunuch was baptized. I say no. He probably was immersed but it doesn’t say. You could be washed all over (fully wet) without immersion. Another thing you haven’t answered is this: Does Baptism cause spiritual regeneration? If the answer is no then why be concerned about immersion?
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Believer's immersion accompanies the gospel and it's commission. And can precede regeneration. Mark 16:15-16.

    Cornelius and his household were regenerated prior to his believer's immersion. Acts of the Apostles 10:30-48.

    Believer's immersion is distinct from the gospel per 1 Corinthians 1:17, ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." If the immersion was a part of the gospel that statement would be a lie.
     
  8. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    My Comment: Same verse we use to prove baptism is necessary. You cannot get away from Baptism. Right in this verse it says “he that Believeth AND is baptized shall be saved”. It doesn’t say “he that Believeth only”.

    Precede regeneration?

    My Comment: I disagree. If you want to see how I break down these verses, go to post #2, and start about halfway down. It continues on post #3. Acts 10:48 is where Cornelius is regenerated.

    My Comment: In error, you separate preaching and the gospel from baptism. Are you saying Baptism is not part of the gospel? Acts 2:38 says to do penance and be baptized and you will receive remission of your sins and the Holy Ghost. No mention of believing. So based on your logic, Acts 2:38 makes preaching and teaching not important. We say you need Faith and Baptism, whether both are mentioned in a verse or not. Of course, Paul wasn’t putting down baptism in 1 Cor 1:17. There was a potential schism (1 Cor 1:10) going on and that’s why he said the things he did. The apostle’s number one vocation was to preach and teach but that doesn’t mean everything else wasn’t important. In a world where no one had heard the gospel, that’s the first thing that needs to be done. You have to know why you are going to be baptized before being baptized. That is the order in Matt 28:19 - Teach and Baptize. Notice: Right after teach is “Baptize”. Just think: One of the two main things Christ sent the apostles to do and you say one of them doesn’t really matter! It doesn’t do anything! In our church, generally bishops teach and priests and deacons Baptize. 1 Cor 6:11 says, “And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name (Baptize in the Name - Matt 28:19) of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.” So right in the same book of the Bible, Paul speaks about baptism and how many of the Corinthians had been in mortal sin (1 Cor 6:9-10). Baptism washed away these sins. Also notice the order: washed - sanctified - justified. I mention the order because it’s not in the order you believe. Also, because you seem to think that if believing or Faith or preaching is listed in a verse before Baptism, that what is second (Baptism) doesn’t mean anything. Why not use that same logic with Romans 8:30? It doesn’t mention “sanctified”. It mentions “justified” but not “sanctified”. Is sanctification not important? Is “Called” more important than “Glorified”? “Called” came before “Glorified”. Is “Glorified” not important? It came last.

    My comment in general: Preaching and Teaching are continuous, baptism is not. Baptism is a one-time event (Eph 4:5). It leaves an indelible mark (Seal - 2 Cor 1:21-22). If you are saved by preaching and/or teaching alone and it is a one-time event, is it necessary to hear preaching and teaching after being saved? If you are saved by “believing alone” and it is a one-time event, is “believing” necessary after being saved?
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Does not provide the believer's immersion that the immersion is the essential. But the argument is made, ". . . but he that believeth not shall be damned. . . ." Nothing anywhere about not having been immersed in the written word of God being a matter of not being saved.

    It is that simple. And ends the argument.
     
    #29 37818, Nov 26, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
  10. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    My Comment:

    Mark 16:16: He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (KJV)

    Believeth Not = disobedience or refuse to believe (Strong’s #569)(also see John 3:36)

    It does not end the argument. Not at all.

    The formula for being Saved: Believeth AND Baptism
    The formula for damnation: Believeth Not, therefore, NO Baptism

    What it means it that “believing” (in Christ’s resurrection) must be present at Baptism and, if not, you shouldn’t baptize. If you are not baptized, you will not be saved. It could be interpreted to mean that whoever refuses to believe will refuse to be baptized. The “believing” Jesus was specifically talking about was believing in His resurrection. Many were rejecting Christ’s resurrection. They believed Christ died (Acts 5:30) but did not believe in His resurrection. Baptism is real but it also symbolizes both Christ’s death AND resurrection so you must believe in His resurrection in order to be baptized. In context, Mark 16:11,13,14 says that some heard from witnesses of Christ’s resurrection but didn’t believe. This included some of the apostles. Jesus was saying that, in the future, when they go out to evangelize, those that don’t believe in His resurrection should not be Baptized. It was the same meaning as in Rom 10:9 where you had to believe in the resurrection and this belief was followed by Baptism in Rom 10:13. Believing is the first step but Baptism is where regeneration takes place. It’s the same formula all over scripture - Teach and Baptize (Matt 28:19). It is crystal clear that you MUST be Baptized. It says so in Mark 16:16 and many other places. Matter of fact, John 3:5 says “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This verse alone proves that Baptism is the instrumental cause of regeneration. Faith or Believing is not mentioned at all. I could use your logic and say Jesus doesn’t mention “believing” in John 3:5, therefore, “believing” doesn’t mean anything and doesn’t have anything to do with our salvation. But I know believing does mean something and, together with Baptism, saves us just like Mark 16:16 says. In context, after John 3:5, Jesus goes on to say you must “believe” in the famous John 3:16 verse and this is followed by “Baptism” in John 3:22. It’s always the same order: believing followed by baptism and both are necessary.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is how you take that passage.
    Are you unable to understand why I do not take it or Romans 10:9 or Romans 10:13 as teaching baptism or confession with the mouth Jesus as Lord or calling on the LORD as required works in order to be saved? Mark 16:16 and Romans 10:13 make the ,very same promise of "shall be saved." Except for Romans 10:13, both Romans 10:9 and Mark 16:16 are stand alone promises. So it makes no sense to me those would be stand alone requirements. If one did not do all three works each promise by each one alone become an empty promise without the other two.
     
  12. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Ok. I am missing something in your understanding. I apologize. It sounds like you are saying that none of the verses work for you. When you were talking about Mark 16:15-16 you said, “Believer's immersion accompanies the gospel and it's commission. And can precede regeneration. Mark 16:15-16.” (Post #27) I asked you about this but I don’t think you explained it. Maybe that’s the missing piece. I don’t know.

    These questions may help me understand:
    At what point are you saved?
    Are you a Calvinist?
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You seem to have heard me correctly.
    When God does the saving. See John 1:13. The belief John 1:11-12 precedes salvation per God. See Ephesians 1:13.
    No.

    Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "

    1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . .
     
  14. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    My Comment:

    You said:
    God does the saving.
    Belief precedes salvation.
    You are not a Calvinist.

    OK. Right now I am still guessing. Maybe it is something like this:

    1. You hear the word
    2. God begins to work inside you (power) because of the hearing (God is doing it all when you are hearing. All you are doing is passively receiving the Word - John 1:12, Eph 1:13)
    3. You begin believing because God already had begun working inside you through the hearing (power)
    4. You fully believe because God had already worked inside you and you are now saved (your salvation happened before you did any outward thing like Accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour, walking the aisle or getting baptized)

    Is it something like that? If I’m wrong maybe you could put it in steps like I did. I realize I need to get this right before I say anything else.
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Close. In my case I did ask Jesus as Savior to save me. [Romans 10:13-15] The asking was a work. But it was the believing which is the basis on which God saved me. [Ehpesians 2:8-9] And I have known God since. [Romans 8:16, John 17:3, and 1 John 5:12-13]
     
  16. Campion

    Campion Member

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    Mark 16:16 ---> "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

    It looks like you and the other anti-Sacramentalists are trying to center the command on "believe" and make the point that if one doesn't believe the Gospel, he'll be condemned.

    Guess what, no one disputes that!

    But the teaching of Jesus in Mark 16.16 is NOT what is required to be damned, but what is required to be saved. The conclusion you are trying to reach-- which is that because not believing alone is sufficient to condemn, therefore believing alone is sufficient to be saved -- is both illogical, and false to the text.

    First, our Blessed Lord describes two necessary conditions in the first clause: belief and baptism. In the second clause, He is describing a person who, by not believing, lacks the first essential condition. Ergo, that person will not be saved.

    Second, why do you seem to think that because Jesus doesn't mention baptism in the second clause, that He's taking back what He said about the need for baptism in the first clause? He was clearly understandable to the Apostles -- and to the entire Christian world except for a minority of Protestant dissenters -- to be saying that he who believes them when they preach the Gospel, and therefore believe their preaching of baptism for the remission of their sins (Act 2.38) -- and obey, will be saved. It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?

    Furthermore, you are being false to the text by attempting to use the second clause to nullify the first. Jesus already introduced belief as one of two necessary conditions for salvation in the first clause. Since the unbeliever in the second clause already lacks the one of the two essential conditions, there is no reason to even mention the second, which would be insufficient by itself. Why would there need to be a separate penalty for not being baptized or any other omission? The person who doesn't believe has already failed to meet one of the two necessary conditions that Jesus just laid down: belief and baptism. There is no logical need for an additional "penalty."

    Are you asking us to believe that Jesus' command in Mark 16.16 is His way of saying if you don't get baptized, God won't hold that against you? In other words, baptism is just a suggestion?

    Lastly, I do find it quite humorous to read you arguing about how baptism is administered (immersion versus pouring) given you don't even believe baptism actually does anything.
     
  17. Campion

    Campion Member

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    First, water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus Noah and his family were saved from sin through the waters of the deluge.

    Secondly, St. Peter draws the parallel between the saving waters of the deluge for Noah and that of the saving waters of baptism for you and I. However, he goes through the trouble of the exclusion, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" to demonstrate the effects of the waters of baptism act not on the exterior (washing the flesh), but rather interiorly, on the conscience and soul of man. The Apostles makes the point that baptism is the anti-type of the waters of the deluge. The waters of baptism now cleanse not our flesh, but our sin. (cf. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5) Hence its effect is not on our flesh (i.e. removal of dirt), but rather on our interior. Through our baptism, we are made anew. (cf. John 3:5, Romans 6:4)


    As a side note, the fact that St. Peter mentions eight people were saved by the waters of the deluge is not just a coincidence, as baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision, which is symbolized by the eighth day / the figure eight. The early Church saw the connection between creation and the completion of the New Creation on the day of Christ's resurrection, which they called the "eighth day." The eighth day signified the start of a new time in history via the resurrection of Christ. Thus, the symbolism of this eighth day was connected to baptism, whereby man becomes a new creation and participates in the death and resurrection of Christ. Baptism, therefore, births us into the eighth day, into the life and new time of Christ. It is also not a coincidence that circumcision was done on the eighth day...

    "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." (Col 2:11-12)

    "And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.” (Luke 2:21)

    If you took a trip to the Holy Land or any of the other ancient sees in Christianity such as Rome, you would notice many of the baptismal fonts are octagonal.

    Here's another example, where St. Ambrose baptized St. Augustine in 387 A.D. in Milan.

    In Christianity, matter...matters.
     
  18. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi 37818,

    You are very sincere. No matter how animated our arguments get, I want you to know that I believe you are a good man. I’m glad we had this time to get to know each other a little better. Of course, that doesn’t mean I’m going to go easy on ya! Ha ha.

    One other thing. I really do appreciate you hanging in there with me in this discussion. I think these discussions are good for us because they make us think and hopefully move us closer to the truth, which is our Lord (John 14:6), but also because they may help others of good will who are viewing them.

    My Comment:

    Up front, you seem to be worried about “Works”. There is nothing wrong with “Good Works”. Good Works doesn’t mean you are earning your salvation. Many think we teach that but we don’t. We are cooperating with God’s Grace. That’s all it is. Your “believing” is given to you by God and you when you use it, it is a Work. Believing is a Work (John 6:29). It is an Act of Faith. In this case (John 6:29), Jesus was trying to get His disciples to exercise their belief in Him before revealing to them the mystery of the Eucharist. They already believed but they had to totally believe in who Jesus was, that is, the Messiah, the Son of God. Without that belief there was no way they were going to believe in the Eucharist. As Fr Lapide says it, Faith leads to every Good Work and, in turn, Good Works preserve Faith. Works are dead without Faith and Faith is dead without Works (James 2:24).

    Also, I’m aware of the other verses you quoted. I think your understanding of believing and becoming saved are the usual so everything I have said so far is correct. It still stands.

    Your Steps Again

    I don’t think I need to change anything because you said “Asking” is a Work and you were really saved before that by “believing”. So I think I got it right.

    1. You hear the word
    2. God begins to work inside you (power) because of the hearing (God is doing it all when you are hearing. All you are doing is passively receiving the Word - John 1:12, Eph 1:13)
    3. You begin believing because God already had begun working inside you through the hearing (power)
    4. You fully believe because God had already worked inside you and you are now saved (your salvation happened before you did any outward thing like Accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour, walking the aisle or getting baptized)

    Catholic View of the Steps

    I’m not going to use bible verses right now because I want to keep it simple so you can see the mechanics of how we view justification.

    The Catholic View is that steps 1-4 are all prior to regeneration (see the steps again below). These steps all “Lead” to regeneration but are NOT where regeneration actually happens. Regeneration happens at Baptism. What causes steps 1-4 are what we call “Actual Graces”. Actual Graces precede (prevenient) anything we can do to obtain salvation and they open up our souls to God. While our souls are opened to God by these Actual Graces, we have the “ability” to choose to come closer to God. We can still say no so we have a real choice. We come to God by continuing to hear the Word, being Taught the Faith, Praying, having sorrow for sins, etc. This is all preparation for receiving Baptism. Baptism is where we are regenerated. Baptism is unemotional. Baptism is a one-time event. We call the graces we receive at Baptism “Sanctifying Graces”. Sanctifying Graces are what saves. So we make a distinction between Actual Graces and Sanctifying Graces.

    Steps - Catholic View:

    (I’m adding a little commentary to the steps but it is all so very simple)

    1. You hear the word (God comes to us first)
    2. God begins to work inside you (power) because of the hearing
    [(John 1:12 - power = Actual Grace)(also can be translated to be Sanctifying Grace sometimes)] God is doing it all when you hear. He is knocking on the door of your soul. We allow Him in (the power to “allow” comes from His grace) and God’s Grace elevates our Intellect and Will - His grace is always first and precedes anything we can do]
    3. You begin believing because God already had begun working inside you through the hearing (power) and you are now cooperating with Him (“cooperating” means God’s graces work in us and with is in when we do anything to move toward Christ ).
    4. You fully believe because God had already worked inside you and then you Cooperated with His graces and, because of that, were Taught the Faith and became fully prepared.
    5. You then receive the Sacrament of Baptism where regeneration takes place.

    (Not everything ends here though. You must persevere. Maybe talk about that later.)

    In a nutshell:
    Steps 1-4 = Taught (Teach)
    Step 5 = Baptism
    (Matt 28:19)

    A couple more things on Baptism. Baptism is NOT something man does. Man does the outward pouring of the water while saying the Words but that doesn’t mean we think man causes the regeneration. The water does NOT cause the regeneration either. God alone causes the regeneration. We use water and baptize because God said to do it that way. Because God said to do it this way, regeneration ONLY happens “simultaneously” with the pouring of the water while invoking the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. In other words, regeneration happens ONLY with Water Baptism (with the usual possible exceptions). Water Baptism is the normal way to be regenerated. Proof that we believe God does it all is that we baptize infants.

    Feelings

    Also, I know you “feel” God’s presence when hearing His Word and you don’t feel it at Baptism. I get that. “Feelings” are great but they can be elusive. You cannot go by feelings to know when you are justified and regenerated. Emotions can change. I feel very inspired some days and on other days, I wonder if I still believe. Then, all of a sudden, I am inspired again. You need to have a definite way of knowing when you are regenerated and that is what Baptism does. Jesus showed us the way (Matt 3:16). We can have tears and we need to have contrition (sorrow for sin) and it can sometimes be emotional but it is doing God’s Will (in His grace) that really counts (Heb 10:36, Matt 7:21, 1 John 2:17, Matt 12:50). Inspiration (I think this is what produces emotions - it is a grace) is very important and that is what Actual Graces produce in us. You need them before justification, during justification and after justification. Not just one time. You need them after justification to persevere. Faith is an actual grace. It is not a one-time event. Baptism is a one-time event.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The symbol of immersion is not meaningless. It portrays the death burial and resurrection, and portrays the believer's burial with Jesus. And it means one is no longer going to live for this world but for God.
     
    #39 37818, Nov 29, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2022
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line, there are absolutely no teaching in the written word of God where believer's immersion is essential in order to have eternal life. But knowing God is, John 17:3. 2 John 1:9 and 1 John 5:9-13. John 12:50.
     
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