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Acts 13:48

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Osage Bluestem, Feb 28, 2011.

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  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I realize my above posting is somewhat bold. It is one thing to say that God is in control and could override man's choices anytime He chooses, but to say that the sin that is rampant in our world is of God's design is to attribute sin to God Himself. If this isn't blasphemy, I don't know what is.

    There is a vast difference in saying that God chooses those who will be saved and then passes by all others. I don't completely agree, but this is vastly different than saying that the sin in today's world is of God's choosing. This makes God the author of sin and therefore makes Him responsible. If this is true, which thank God is is not, for God to judge sin would make Him inconsistent with Himself and thereby make Him a sinner. This is preposterous.
     
    #101 Robert Snow, Mar 1, 2011
  2. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem Member

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    God works all things according to the purpose of his will.

    Ephesians 1:11 ESV
    11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

    Of course God forordained it. However, as shown before in Genesis 50. God meant it for good satan meant it for evil.

    It is obviously good and shows God's sovereignty. We are still discussing Job today.
     
    #102 Osage Bluestem, Mar 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2011
  3. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem Member

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    I know because of the scriptures that God is sovereign and I trust in him and his judgements in all things. I know that all things will work together for good for those who love him and I love him. I point you to the scripture regarding the sovereignty of God.

    Proverbs 16:1 ESV
    1The plans of the heart belong to man,
    but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

    Proverbs 16:4 ESV
    4The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
    even the wicked for the day of trouble.

    Proverbs 16:9 ESV
    9The heart of man plans his way,
    but the LORD establishes his steps.

    Isaiah 14:24 ESV
    24The LORD of hosts has sworn: "As I have planned,
    so shall it be,
    and as I have purposed,
    so shall it stand,

    Isaiah 14:27 ESV
    27 For the LORD of hosts has purposed,
    and who will annul it?
    His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?

    Daniel 4:34-35 ESV
    34At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,

    for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
    35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
    and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
    and among the inhabitants of the earth;
    and none can stay his hand
    or say to him, "What have you done?"

    Romans 11:36 ESV
    36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV
    6yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    Revelation 4:11 ESV
    11 "Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
    for you created all things,
    and by your will they existed and were created."

    I suggest you don't be so quick to judge or lable others especially when they show scriptural support for everything they say and have respected baptist pastors and theologians current and past that share their views.

    It is apparent you do not know the difference. You are actually railing at God's revelation about himself and labling it falsly as something it's not.

    Tell me this. If God is indeed sovereign and has ordained all that happens, do you judge him wicked?

    All things are of God's purpose and plan. His intentions are good man's are evil. As shown in Genesis by Joseph:

    Genesis 50:20 ESV
    20As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

    You are not railing at me but at what the scriptures reveal about God. You are judging God's sovereign purpose as something bad instead of remembering who is in control and that there is nothing that can occur without his permission.

    The sin is fully man's responsibility because he performs with evil intent that which God has allowed and predestined to take place.
    That man is destined to disobey God is clear in the scripture.

    1 Peter 2:8 ESV
    and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

    Just trust God. He knows best.

    Acts 2:23 ESV
    23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

    Acts 4:27-28 ESV
    27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

    Jesus TOLD Judas to betray him quickly.

    John 13:27 ESV
    Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”


    Trust in the Lord.

    Here is a definitive passage from Isaiah regarding God's sovereignty.

    Isaiah 45:7 ESV
    I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

    Here is how the KJV words the same passage:

    Isaiah 45:7 KJV
    7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


    The scriptures plainly reveal God is sovereign. Faith in God is trusting God that he knows best for us and that his plan is good. Do you have faith in God?

    Proverbs 3:5-6 ESV
    5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
    and do not lean on your own understanding.
    6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make straight your paths.

    Romans 8:28-30 ESV
    28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
     
    #103 Osage Bluestem, Mar 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2011
  4. Ron Wood

    Ron Wood New Member

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    I will say this once more just in case you really don't understand. The words "world" and "all" always need a qualifier. Even your side qualifies them. The argument in those passages isn't about the need for a qualifer but what the qualifier is. But that is not the case in this text. Any ninth grader knows that Gentile means non-Jew. The word identifies a specific group all by itself. It certainly includes all those you name but stands alone as an identifying word. It needs no qualifier. Honesty demands that you acknowledge this simple fact. The only reason you must add a qualifier is to get around the plain meaning of the text and that isn't legitimate.
     
    #104 Ron Wood, Mar 1, 2011
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You are absolutely right Ron.

    We say "all" all of the time and don't literally mean "all".

    NO WE DON'T! We don't say "all" ALL the time. Sometimes we say other things. Sometimes we say nothing. The whole WORLD does this.

    NO IT DOESN'T!! There are thousands of people who never speak. Infants, Invalids, the dumb. Everybody knows that "all" rarely means LITERALLY ALL.

    NO THEY DON'T!! EVERYBODY doesn't know this. Some people do not know ANYTHING. Some are in a comma and some have not even been born yet.

    To argue that ALL means literally all all the time is ignorant.

    The same is true with the terms "whole world". It is VERY rare that "whole world" means every person in the entire world. The whole WORLD knows this!!!!

    If it were not for Arminianism and humanism forcing itself upon the text of God these passages would have never been THOUGHT of to refer to every single person in the world.

    It is truly ignorant to demand otherwise.
     
    #105 Luke2427, Mar 2, 2011
  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    World and all

    When men say world and all it is limited to what he sees and knows that is including God. So world and all is limited to the one who sees it. So all and world to God is everyone so praise be to God.
     
    #106 psalms109:31, Mar 2, 2011
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Nope. That is not accurate.

    If I say everybody in the WORLD knows better than what you purport here I mean the vast majority of the intelligent human race.

    I actually KNOW that babies do not know it. I actually KNOW that invalids and comma patience do not know it.

    Though I know they exist who do NOT know this I am still using the word rightly when I say, "The whole WORLD knows better than this."

    The terms WHOLE WORLD almost NEVER means every single person in the WORLD.

    God's word says that Caesar Augustus taxed the whole WORLD. Did God not KNOW that Caesar did not tax the Chinese??
     
    #107 Luke2427, Mar 2, 2011
  8. Ron Wood

    Ron Wood New Member

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    What! That is just nonsense. It isn't limited to what is seen and known. If I say world I may mean the physical world, Earth, the natural world, plants and animals, the Islamic world, non christians and a myriad of other things. That is why it requires a qualifier. I must qualify it either in the context of what I am saying or directly. The same is true of the word "all". I may mean all idiots, all scholars, all infants or all monkeys. The word must have a qualifier. That is not the case with the word "Gentile". The word identifies a specfic group which includes all of the subgroups. See how that works? I just used the word all and a qualifier.
     
    #108 Ron Wood, Mar 2, 2011
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    World

    World to God is everything only men try to put limits on what God sees, because they simple can't believe the word.

    2 Timothy 2:14
    [ Dealing With False Teachers ] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
     
    #109 psalms109:31, Mar 2, 2011
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here is another helpful article about what God controls.You can read it and enjoy it, or you can resist and post more error.
    http://www.wordmp3.com/files/gs/ordains.htm

    This link is well worth the read and worth saving for personal study and is a proper subject of spiritual meditation.
     
    #110 Iconoclast, Mar 2, 2011
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  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Robert you are correct. God did not ordain sin and yes any suggestion of such IS blasphemy. To suggest such shows a total lacking of any understanding of the Lord.
    If someone today had a child who they encouraged to do evil and then severely punished them, even sinful man can tell that this parent is evil to the core and the state would remove the child and put the parent in jail. I can understand why and how a lost person might say that God created sin and men sin because of God's will but for someone to claim to be united with God and make that claim is worst then being an infidel.

    We know that God does not decide every thing that happens. He has a will and at times it is violated. 1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
    Not every Christian lives their life as a Christian abstaining from fornication. Some (many) comitt fornication. As a matter of fact I would venture to guess that even many of those here on this board entered into fornication before marriage while they were claiming to be a Christian. That was clearly not God ordained as His will is for that not to happen according to scripture.
    The same is true with salvation. It is not His will that some perish, but they do.
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    All are not going to repent and many will perish.
     
    #111 freeatlast, Mar 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2011
  12. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    What has happened is the Hypers have carefully manipulated bible verses, like the Jehovah's Witnesses do, to make the Word of God appear to say something it does not say. Like the aforementioned cult, these people have ignored scripture that disagrees with them or have subtly attempted to change the meaning to make God appear to be responsible for evil. Yet they do this is blind ignorance supposing this somehow adds to God's glory.

    With this assault on the plain teachings of scripture, no wonder many have chosen to take the word Baptist off their signs. If I were a pastor and I pastored a church in an area that was dominated by these folk, I would be tempted to do the same.
     
    #112 Robert Snow, Mar 2, 2011
  13. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem Member

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    As stated before God is absolutley sovereign but is not the author of sin. In the end his will is always done. All those who are saved will be sanctified and will no longer sin anymore for eternity.

    Sin comes from the heart of the evil being doing the sinning.

    There is no assault on the plain teachings of scripture going on here. I have simply posted many scriptures that teach that God is sovereign. There are many more! It is a major theme of the bible. It is a comforting pastoral doctrine to God's people to know that nothing is beyond God's control.

    You are the one who has brought down judgement upon these passages. You didn't even deal with them. You simply claimed that they were twisted.

    I didn't even go into detail about them I simply posted them AS THEY ARE WRITTEN IN THE TEXT!

    You then started accusations of blasphemy. You also didn't answer my question.

    Answer this one question without further attacks against a christian you don't even know.

    If the bible does indeed teach that God is sovereign, would you reject him?

    As stated before God is not evil and sovereignty doesn't mean that. God has a perfect infallible good plan and it will all work out to his glory and for the good of his people.

    Please cease your false accusations.
     
    #113 Osage Bluestem, Mar 2, 2011
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  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    If you're a Calvinist, yes they do have to be qualified. But a normal objective reader can simply understand the implied meaning of the words, which is that God actually did provide atonement for all the world and whosoever believes will not perish. And no the atonement provided for those who reject the appeal to be reconciled is not "wasted" because the atonement is provisional. People who perish do so not because they didn't have the option of atonement, they do so because they rejected the truth and refused to believe and follow Christ.

    Just like your side is qualifying the word "Gentiles" to mean one group so that the term "as many as" must refer not to the groups which make up the Gentiles, but individuals within that group. Qualify is just another word for "interpret" or "define" in order to understand the intent. We all qualify many words in order for us to find the intent. You have given a qualifier for the word Gentiles whether you recognize it or not.
     
    #114 Skandelon, Mar 2, 2011
  15. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem Member

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    We all agree that only those who place their faith in Christ are atoned for.

    Romans 5:1 ESV
    5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

    Romans 3:22-26 ESV
    22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus

    So that leaves those who reject Christ not atoned for. So the atonement is limited to only those with faith in Christ.

    The only way to have an unlimited atonement is to have universalism.

    Regarding a well meant offer, it is true there is a well meant offer of salvation to all who hear the gospel. God has commanded that all repent and believe in Christ.

    The unregenerate man WILL NOT DO IT. He rejects Christ every single time Christ is brought up. Only a regenerate man will accept Christ.

    Those who pray to receive Christ have already been regenerated or they wouldn't want to pray to receive Christ!

    So God in his providence and watchful hand over his elect has ensured that they will be saved by regenerating them so that they will accept the gospel.
     
    #115 Osage Bluestem, Mar 2, 2011
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That is what the Muslims say about Allah. But wrong is still wrong, no matter what your perspective is.
     
    #116 DHK, Mar 2, 2011
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You're kidding right???

    It is what the BIBLE says of the One True God!
     
    #117 Luke2427, Mar 2, 2011
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Perception Luke, perception.

    How do they perceive Allah, and how does the Calvinist perceive God. We know that the two Gods are different, but your perceptions of the natures of the two are very close.
     
    #118 DHK, Mar 2, 2011
  19. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem Member

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    You do realize that Islam is basicaly an ancient Christian heresy. They claim that Allah is the God of Abraham. They believe Jesus was a prophet.

    So really when they reference Allah they are referencing the Lord the same God we worship.

    Regarding God working all things according to the council of his will that is simply what Ephesians 1:11 says.

    Ephesians 1:11 ESV
    11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

    Have you read these passages sir?

    Proverbs 16:1 ESV
    1The plans of the heart belong to man,
    but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

    Proverbs 16:4 ESV
    4The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
    even the wicked for the day of trouble.

    Proverbs 16:9 ESV
    9The heart of man plans his way,
    but the LORD establishes his steps.

    Isaiah 14:24 ESV
    24The LORD of hosts has sworn: "As I have planned,
    so shall it be,
    and as I have purposed,
    so shall it stand,

    Isaiah 14:27 ESV
    27 For the LORD of hosts has purposed,
    and who will annul it?
    His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?

    Daniel 4:34-35 ESV
    34At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,

    for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
    35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
    and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
    and among the inhabitants of the earth;
    and none can stay his hand
    or say to him, "What have you done?"

    Romans 11:36 ESV
    36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV
    6yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    Revelation 4:11 ESV
    11 "Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
    for you created all things,
    and by your will they existed and were created."

    Isaiah 55:8-11 ESV
    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
    and do not return there but water the earth,
    making it bring forth and sprout,
    giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
    11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
    it shall not return to me empty,
    but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
    and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

    I do not see how anyone can deny the bible teaches the sovereignty of God.
     
    #119 Osage Bluestem, Mar 2, 2011
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    There are probably no real hypers on this site. One or two of the Primitive guys might lean that way but the fact is that the vast majority of the Calvinists on this board believe in evangelism with their whole heart and believe that ALL MEN are responsible to God to repent. You do not know what you are talking about.
     
    #120 Luke2427, Mar 2, 2011
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