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Featured Adam Clarke Commentary on Romans 4:5...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SovereignGrace, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I can't see it...hallelujah..
     
  2. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Folks? Who are these who follow you from thread to thread????

    Yes, we see the light through your smoke. Your teaching is plain heresy, no amount of smoke you produce can hide that fact. Even a pretend 'folks' audience could see it. I really, and truly feel bad for you.
     
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I can't see you Van...
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    We are made righteous, not imputed with righteousness.
    We become the righteousness of God in Him, we are not imputed with righteousness.
    The mythology of the nameless doctrine has been exposed. The misconstrue Romans 4:5 and then claim imputed righteousness without any scriptural support.
     
  5. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Okay guys, let us show some decorum, okay? I am sorry for my part.
     
  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The crux of this debate centers around the doctrine of imputation. We, the DoG(crowd cheers "yaaaay!!!") hold to that doctrine, whereas Van(crowd says "boo hiss boo hiss!!!") doesn't. Now, let us see what this doctrine teaches...



    Imputed righteousness
    Imputed righteousness is a theological concept directly related to the doctrine of Justification. It is particularly prevalent in the Reformed tradition.
    "Justification is that step in salvation in which God declares the believer righteous. Protestant theology has emphasized that this includes the imputation of Christ's righteousness (crediting it to the believer's "account"), whereas Roman Catholic theology emphasizes that God justifies in accord with an infused righteousness merited by Christ and maintained by the believer's good works," (Elwell Evangelical Dictionary). Imputed righteousness therefore means that upon repentance and belief in Christ, individuals are forensically declared righteous. This righteousness is not the believer's own, rather it is Christ's own righteousness 'imputed' to the believer.
    A primary line of argumentation for this doctrine maintains that perfect righteousness or holiness is necessary to be with God. All mankind "fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23) because all their 'righteousness' is like filthy rags (Is 64:6) before the throne of God, and so all are "dead in their trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1), and as a result "will not come into [God's] light for fear that their evil deeds will be revealed" (John 3:20). All mankind is in this predicament because all are the offspring of Adam and Eve (Rom 5) who originally sinned against God. As a result of Adam's fall, the world was cursed and sin entered the world. But upon confession of one's own sin and faith in Christ's death and resurrection, the sinner is justified and counted as having the righteousness of Christ.
    Although all of Christianity would agree that Christ is the believer's chief representative and head before the perfect holiness of God, not all would agree that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. In some circles, imputed righteousness is referred to as positive imputation - where the believer receives the righteousness of Christ. It stands in contrast to negative imputation - where the sin and judgment due to the repenting sinner is imputed to Christ. Virtually all would agree with the latter, but not all will agree with the former. The debate turns on a number of Bible verses not the least of which deal with what and whose righteousness was credited to Abraham when he believed God (Genesis 15:5-6).
    Imputed righteousness is one of the classic doctrines of Protestantism and traces back through the Reformers - chiefly John Calvin and Martin Luther. These men stood against the Roman Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness where the righteousness of the saints and of Christ is gradually infused to the believer through the sacraments. For the Catholic, infused righteousness either gradually dissipates as the believer takes part in worldly sins or is enhanced by good works. If the believer dies without having the fullness of righteousness, coming in part from the last rites, he or she will temporarily spend time in purgatory until the sinful status is purged from his or her record.
    Relevant scriptures
    http://www.theopedia.com/imputed-righteousness


    Now, the way Jesus was declared/reckoned/credited/counted 'sin' was when He was imputed our sins by drinking the cup of God's wrath in the garden at Gethsamane. He did nothing to 'become' sin, of His own volition, that is. Now, think along those same lines in how we are declared righteous. We did nothing to make ourselves righteous, as it was God who quickened us, gave us the gifts of faith and repentance, we exercised those gifts and were saved. So, our salvation all stems from God, as it was He who gifted us the necessary gifts that saved us.

    If this what Van states is true, then what Abraham did, was what made him righteous before God. So he did something and then God did the next. Now, if that, again, is true, then Jesus had to do something to be declared a sinner.

    That is why this doctrine of (double)imputation is so vital to understand how salvation is 100% God and 0% man.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    And yet another copy and paste post presenting the mythology of "imputed righteousness." No specific verse was cited, there are none, and none of the conflicting verses were cited that teach we are made righteous, and we become the righteousness of God in Him.

    How are we justified, made righteous, holy and blameless? First, this transformation occurs spiritually in Christ. No one not in Christ has undergone the circumcision of Christ, or the washing of regeneration (being born anew) and arising in Christ a new creation. Folks, this is basic Christianity 101.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God the father chose those to whom the recocialtion would come, as he predestined those whom were to get saved by the Cross of Christ...

    Again, what is the ground/basis of us having that foreign rightiousness now of Christ?

    Something I did, or something that he did for those who could do nothing on their own to save themselves>
     
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Dr. Bill Mounce‏ @BiblicalT
    My choice in translation has been 'credited'.

    And I have no problem with that word in that verse. To be credited righteousness is to be given something that was not theirs to begin with.
     
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  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And I will take Dr. Mounce, a reknown greek scholar over someone who rewrites what the bible says.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Imputed to us a foreign rightiousness that is not of us at all...
     
  12. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    You mean righteousness.
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, God chose those whose faith He credited as righteousness and transferred them spiritually into Christ. When positionally "in Christ" we undergo the circumcision of Christ, where are sin burden - what God holds against us - is removed. We arise in Christ a new creation, born anew and made alive together with Christ, our washing of regeneration. We have become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Unless you can support your position from scripture, you are pushing mythology.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL credited and reckoned are advocated by the "scholars" whereas nobody advocates imputed. But they continue to post as if they do not understand the issue. Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness to Abraham. He was not credited as becoming the righteousness of God. That only occurs "in Christ," This is basic Christianity 101.

    Lets review the myths:
    1) Total Spiritual inability is a myth, scripture teaches the fallen have limited spiritual ability, able to respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual meat. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
    2) Limited Atonement is a myth, scripture teaches God desires all men to be saved and Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:4-6
    3) Unconditional Election for salvation is a myth, scripture teaches God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
    4) Irresistible Grace is a myth, scripture teaches that men who were entering the kingdom were blocked by false teachers. Matthew 23:13.
    5) Being made righteous by imputation is a myth, scripture teaches we become the righteousness of God in Him and we are made righteous.
     
    #34 Van, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Here's another site that helps show how we are imputed/credited/reckoned/counted with the righteousness of the Christ...

    God justifies any ungodly person who does not work for salvation, but believes in Jesus Christ (4:4-5).
    “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness” (4:4-5).
    First (4:4) Paul gives a negative example from everyday life that we can easily understand. When you work and your boss pays you, he isn’t doing you a favor. (Favor is literally grace.) You don’t send him a thank you note, telling him how much you appreciated his kindness. No, he owes you the money. If he doesn’t pay, you can take him to court to make him pay. It’s a debt.
    But the principle of grace is different (4:5). Under grace you do not work for justification. Rather, you believe God’s promise to declare righteous any sinner who trusts in Jesus and His shed blood as the propitiation for his sins (3:25). As the righteous Judge, God recognizes

    Jesus’ death as payment in full for all our sins. The instant we believe in Jesus, God bangs the gavel and declares, “Not guilty!” But He not only removes our sin and guilt. Also,

    He imputes the very righteousness of Jesus to our account.
    Again, although Paul says here, “his faith is credited as righteousness,” in the context (3:24-26) he means that the guilty sinner’s faith has laid hold of Jesus Christ as the perfect and final sacrifice for sins. Faith is not a work that merits righteousness. If it were, verse 5 would be saying the opposite of what Paul is arguing! Faith does not merit God’s favor, or grace would not be undeserved. Rather, faith means not doing anything ourselves to earn salvation, but rather trusting what Christ did for us on the cross. God justifies us as a gift through faith (3:24). Faith is the hand that receives the free gift of right standing with God apart from our works.

    Let me draw out four implications of this astounding truth:

    A. To be justified, you must cease working for salvation.

    Paul clearly spells it out, “to the one who does not work….” If you try to blend your works with God’s grace, you muddy the waters of pure grace. If you work to earn justification, then God owes you something. But God will not be a debtor to anyone.
    If you feel bad about your sins and are trying to get them under control so that God will accept you, you have not ceased working. You do not understand God’s grace. If you think that maybe you should become a missionary or go live and work in a slum for years, depriving yourself of the normal comforts of life, so that God will overlook your sins on judgment day, you’re still working. You do not understand His grace. To be justified by God’s grace, you must stop working!

    B. To be justified, you must see yourself as ungodly.

    God justifies only one kind of person: the ungodly. There is debate among scholars as to whether Paul was referring specifically to Abraham or whether he meant to contrast a notoriously sinful person with the relatively good Abraham. While Abraham was relatively good when you compare humans with humans, in God’s sight we all have sinned and fall short of His glory. Abraham was as much in need of God’s perfect righteousness as were the wicked people of Sodom. In God’s sight (Rom. 3:10), “There is none righteous, not even one.” We’re all bugs!
    So if you see yourself as a basically good person, you can’t be justified. If you see yourself as better than notorious sinners and thus somehow more deserving of salvation, you can’t be justified. To be justified, you must see yourself as ungodly and deserving of God’s righteous judgment.

    C. To be justified, you must believe that God will justify you, the ungodly, through the propitiation of Christ’s blood.

    Faith means taking God at His word when He promises to justify the one who has faith in Jesus (3:26). You acknowledge that the wages of your sin is death (Rom. 6:23), eternal separation from the holy God. But you trust God’s promise that “while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly” (Rom. 5:6). Faith means taking the gift of Christ’s full payment for your sins, much as you would thankfully receive a check from a wealthy man who offered to pay a large fine that you couldn’t afford to pay. Faith means trusting Jesus to be your advocate in court, to plead His shed blood in your case before the bench of God’s justice.

    D. To be justified means that God credits Christ’s righteousness to your account through your faith.

    If justification were based on how righteous we were in actual conduct, then we could never be declared perfectly righteous in this life, because we always have some indwelling sin in us. We need Christ’s perfect righteousness credited to our account. We need our sin put on Christ’s account. That transaction takes place the instant that we believe in Jesus (2 Cor. 5:21).

    https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-20-god-justifies-ungodly-romans-41-5


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  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Why does Christ's righteousness need to be imputed to us?
    [​IMG] [​IMG]Subscribe to our Question of the Week:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Question: "Why does Christ's righteousness need to be imputed to us?"


    Answer:
    In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus uttered these words: “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). This comes at the end of the section of the sermon where Jesus corrects His listeners’ misunderstanding of the Law. In Matthew 5:20, Jesus says that, if His hearers want to enter into the kingdom of heaven, their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, who were the experts in the Law.

    Then, in Matthew 5:21–48, He proceeds to radically redefine the law from mere outward conformity, which characterized the “righteousness” of the Pharisees, to an obedience of both outward and inward conformity. He says, “You have heard it said, but I say unto you” to differentiate between the way people heard the law taught from how Jesus is reinterpreting it. Obeying the law is more than simply abstaining from killing, committing adultery, and breaking oaths. It’s also not getting angry with your brother, not lusting in your heart, and not making insincere oaths. At the end of all this, we learn that we must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, and that comes from being perfect.

    At this point, the natural response is “But I can’t be perfect,” which is absolutely true. In another place in Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus summarizes the Law of God with two commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–40). This is certainly an admirable goal, but has anyone ever loved the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself? Everything we do, say, and think has to be done, said, and thought from love for God and love for neighbor. If we are completely honest with ourselves, we have to admit that we have never achieved this level of spirituality.

    The truth of the matter is that, on our own and by our own efforts, we can’t possibly be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. We don’t love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. We don’t love our neighbors as ourselves. We have a problem, and it’s called sin. We are born with it, and we cannot overcome the effects of it on our own. Sin radically affects us to our core. Sin affects what we do, say, and think. In other words, it taints everything about us. Therefore, no matter how good we try to be, we will never meet God’s standard of perfection. The Bible says that all of our righteous deeds are like a “polluted garment” (Isaiah 64:6). Our own righteousness is simply not good enough and never will be, no matter how hard we try.

    That’s why Jesus lived a perfect life in full obedience to the law of God in thought, word, and deed. Jesus’ mission wasn’t simply to die on the cross for our sins but also to live a life of perfect righteousness. Theologians refer to this as the “active and passive obedience of Christ.” Active obedience refers to Christ’s life of sinless perfection. Everything He did was perfect. Passive obedience refers to Christ’s submission to the crucifixion. He went willingly to the cross and allowed Himself to be crucified without resisting (Isaiah 53:7). His passive obedience pays our sin debt before God, but it is the active obedience that gives us the perfection God requires.

    The apostle Paul writes, “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21–22). Through our faith in Christ, the righteousness of God is given to us. This is called “imputed” righteousness. To impute something is to ascribe or attribute something to someone. When we place our faith in Christ, God ascribes the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account so that we become perfect in His sight. “For our sake he made him [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

    Not only is Christ’s righteousness imputed to us through faith, but our sin is imputed to Christ. That is how Christ paid our sin debt to God. He had no sin in Himself, but our sin is imputed to Him so, as He suffers on the cross, He is suffering the just penalty that our sin deserves. That is why Paul can say, “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20).

    By having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, we can be seen as sinless, as Jesus is sinless. It is not, therefore, our perfection, but His. When God looks at the Christian, He sees the holiness, perfection, and righteousness of Christ. Therefore, we can say with confidence, “I am sinless, as Jesus is sinless.” Recommended Resource:

    Making Sense of Salvation by Wayne Grudem

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  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    This is sooooooooo good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    None Righteous
    by R.C. Sproul

    The Psalmist asked the question: “If the Lord marks iniquity, who should stand?” This query is obviously rhetorical. The only answer, indeed the obvious answer is no one.

    The question is stated in a conditional form. It merely considers the dire consequences that follow if the Lord marks iniquity. We breathe a sigh of relief saying, “Thank heavens the Lord does not mark iniquity!”

    Such is a false hope. We have been led to believe by an endless series of lies that we have nothing to fear from God’s scorecard. We can be confident that if He is capable of judgment at all, His judgment will be gentle. If we all fail His test — no fear — He will grade on a curve. After all, it is axiomatic that to err is human and to forgive is divine. This axiom is so set in concrete that we assume that forgiveness is not merely a divine option, but a veritable prerequisite for divinity itself. We think that not only may God be forgiving, but He must be forgiving or He wouldn’t be a good God. How quick we are to forget the divine prerogative: “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (Rom. 9:15 NKJV)

    In our day we have witnessed the eclipse of the Gospel. That dark shadow that obscures the light of the Gospel is not limited to Rome or liberal Protestantism; it looms heavily within the Evangelical community. The very phrase “preaching the Gospel” has come to describe every form of preaching but the preaching of the Gospel. The “New” Gospel is one that worries not about sin. It feels no great need for justification. It readily dismisses the imputation of Christ’s righteousness as an essential need for salvation. We have substituted the “unconditional love” of God for the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. If God loves us all unconditionally, who needs the righteousness of Christ?

    The reality is that God does mark iniquity, and He manifests His wrath against it. Before the Apostle Paul unfolds the riches of the Gospel in his epistle to the Romans, he sets the stage for the need of that Gospel: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men…” (Rom. 1:18).

    This text affirms a real revelation of real wrath from a real God against real ungodliness and unrighteousness of real men. No appeal to some invented idea of the unconditional love of God can soften these realities.

    The human dilemma is this: God is holy, and we are not. God is righteous, and we are not. To be sure, it is openly admitted in our culture that “No one is perfect.” Even the most sanguine humanist grants that humanity is marred. But, on balance … ah, there’s the rub. Like Muslims we assume that God will judge us “on balance.” If our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds, we will arrive safely in heaven. But, alas, if our evil deeds outweigh our good ones, we will suffer the wrath of God in hell. We may be “marred” by sin but in no wise devastated by it. We still have the ability to balance our sins with our own righteousness. This is the most monstrous lie of all. We not only claim such righteousness; we rely on such righteousness, which righteousness in fact does not exist. Our righteousness is a myth, but by no means a harmless one. Nothing is more perilous than for an unrighteous person to rest his future hope in an illusion.

    It was against such an illusion that Paul stressed by citing the Psalmist: “For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.’” (Rom. 3:9–12 NKJV)


    What comprises just under four verses of the New Testament is so radical that if the modern church would come to believe it, we would experience a revival that would make the Reformation pale into insignificance. But the church today does not believe the content of these verses: There is none righteous — not one.

    Who believes that apart from Jesus not a single human being, without exception, is righteous. Not a single unregenerate person can be found who understands God.

    Seeking God? We have totally revised corporate worship to be sensitive to “seekers.” If worship were to be tailored for seekers, it would be directed exclusively to believers, for no one except believers ever seeks God.

    Every person turns aside from God. All become unprofitable in spiritual matters. At rock bottom no one even does good — no, not one.

    Good is a relative term. It is defined against some standard. If we establish what that standard is, we can congratulate ourselves and take comfort in our attainment of it. But if God establishes the standard, and His standard includes outward behavior (that our actions conform perfectly to His law) and internal motivation (that all our acts proceed from a heart that loves Him perfectly), then we quickly see that our pretended “goodness” is no goodness at all. We then understand what Augustine was getting at when he said that man’s best works are nothing more than “splendid vices.”

    So what? The equation is simple. If God requires perfect righteousness and perfect holiness to survive His perfect judgment, then we are left with a serious problem. Either we rest our hope in our own righteousness, which is altogether inadequate, or we flee to another’s righteousness, an alien righteousness, a righteousness not our own inherently. The only place such perfect righteousness can be found is in Christ — that is the good news of the Gospel. Subtract this element of alien righteousness that God “counts” or “imputes” for us, and we have no biblical Gospel at all. Without imputation, the Gospel becomes “another gospel,” and such a “gospel” brings nothing but the anathema of God.

    With the righteousness of Christ promised to us by faith, we have the hope of our salvation. We become numbered among those blessed to whom the Lord does not impute sin (Rom. 4:8).



    http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/none-righteous/



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  18. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Part of the issue of attributing to man any good, seeking after God, is conflating the works of one who is regenerate as if he were unregenerate and capable in that state to do such things. Corneilius for example.
     
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    And there you have it, the arguments of commentators, rather than from scripture.
    1) Is the dispute over whether God justifies the ungodly? Nope, God does justify the ungodly.
    2) Does Romans 4:4-5 say God declares righteous any sinner who believes? Nope It says God credits the believers faith as righteousness to the believer. The sinner is not declared righteous.
    3) Does 2 Corinthians 5:21 say God credits Christ's righteousness to us? Nope. It says we become the righteousness of God in Him.
    4) Does Romans 3:21-24 day how we are justified? Yes, through our redemption (being placed in Christ) which is in Jesus Christ. Imputed righteousness is nowhere to be found.
    5) Does Galatians 2:20 say our sins were imputed to Christ? Nope OTOH our sin burden (body of flesh)is removed by the circumcision of Christ, Colossians 2:11

    Imputed righteousness is just another nameless doctrine myth. We are made righteous in Him.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I noticed an assertion, "the righteousness of God is "given" to us" and wondered where is the world that came from. And lo and behold, the dreaded NIV sticks given into Romans 3:22. So yet another example of the NIV adding to the text to alter its meaning. But if you stick to the Word for Word type translations, rather than the more liberal translations, you will not find "given." (NASB, LEB, NKJV).

    Romans 5:19, "For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." Note scripture does not say the many with have Christ's righteousness impute. :)
     
    #40 Van, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
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