Adam not literal????

Of course not...the poetry is used in such a manner as to explain more...not obscure facts and details...it adds to what is known.
I have already explained this about the first sentence (unfinished sentence) in the bible. God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing...The word "nothing" is missing because it it poetry and poetic liscense allows for that.The word "nothing" wasn't written because 6000 years later some fool would try to make something out of the word "nothing". The poetic nature, equal distance letter spacing(God's name is written accross the Torah except for leviticus and then it is Aaron's), and the narrative all have lent themselves to keep the Torah intact and accurate over the centuries.

 

Nothing needs to be added to what is known. Scripture is the product of revelation, not the product of invented poetry.

The word "nothing" is missing because God didn't inspire it.

This is pure nonsense. Anyone remotely familiar with the Hebrew text knows that equa-distant lettering is purely made up and cannot stand even basic tests of evaluation.

 

The best way that I can (in laymans terms) describe the hebrew word "bara" (to make) is that it is a prepositional verb meaning that a substance is required..wooden table, stone table, metal table. In this first sentence the verb "bara" is used but there is no material stated as to what God made the heavens and the earth out of.

I understand that Pastor Larry is adamant that this is the product of my imagination...and many will not disagree with a moderator. But I have way too many witnesses who all attest that the truth is exactly opposite of what he is saying.

My suggestion is become familiar with a transliterated copy of Genesis and read it yourself...the obvious poetry will come right out. There is enough rhyme there to satisfy anyone. Only a blind and deaf man or stubborn person will refuse to see and acknowledge the truth as it is plainly revealed. Actually understanding the Hebrew isn't neccesary for this one. The pronunciation alone of the transliterated hebrew is more than enough.

And proper grammar is always proper grammar...Where did the Grammar rules come from? English has it's set and Portugese it's own set...which is different than Hebrew grammar.

 

So doesn't that imply that there was nothing from which God created the world? It seems deliberate that no material is stated, because no material existed except God since creation had not taken place.

You haven't been here long if you think that! :laugh:

My suggestion is to know genres and read OT scholars who recognize Genesis as narrative. Narrative does not mean there is no poetic language or imagery, but it is narrative genre. In fact, the Genesis narrative of creation is markedly different from the pagan myths and tales of creation because the Genesis narrative is so straightforward and rather simple in style. I got this from my OT professor who also teaches Hebrew.

 

The Torah rhymes...has chiasm, meter, accrostics and rythm...I don't know or care what Genre it is...I call that poetry!

I haven't found one sentence in it yet that isn't part of a poem of some shape, form or fashion...Why on earth it is important that it not be poetic is really weird to me.

And if your hebrew professor doesn't or will not see that...it is time for a new professor.

 

I am not a moderator in this forum, and people disagree with moderators all the time.

I asked you to give some. You have not. Surely with all these witnesses, you can put forth a name of a recognized Hebrew scholar that we can check up on.

I read Hebrew just about every day. I don't need a transliteration. I have translated the majority of the book of Genesis, and can read most of it on sight. It is not poetic.

Hebrew poetry doesn't rhyme. If you knew Hebrew you would know that.

Again, pure nonsense. Read any basic book on Hebrew poetry, or advanced book on Hebrew poetry, and you will see that rhyme is not a factor in Hebrew poetry.

So why don't you show us one?

Because it's not poetry. And that matters.

I seriously doubt if have ever had any Hebrew. People who know Hebrew do not say this kind of stuff.

So do this: Give us the names of these sources who say what you claim. You have been asked several times for them. So tell us where we can read the people that you are getting this from.

 

The Torah is not known for poetry, accrostics, etc. You can find that in the Psalms and some other OT books, but not the Torah, except for snippets here and there.

I think my prof knows more Hebrew than you do.

Please show evidence, as Pastor Larry asked.

 

Ya know...I don't think this is the forum for me...if this is such a big thing for yawl...

and after researching what you do to your own missionaries...I am about positive of it.

I had never heard of "deputation" till I came accross fundamental Baptist websites. I can't believe yawl do that to your missionaries. I would much rather face down a dozen angry mobs of Moslems than face one month of that.

I can truly undestand why Jesus, the prince of peace, would say, "I didn't come to bring peace but a sword...from now on it will be mother against daughter, father against son...a man's enemies will be members of his own house"

**Shakes dust**

 

You kept insisting on something without any evidence and for which there is much evidence against. Remember, this is a debate forum.

Which missionaries?

Huh? This is not the Fundamentalist forum! Do you realize how many different stripes of Baptists post on this forum??? I am not a Fundamentalist Baptist nor have I ever even been to a Fundamentalist church. To say that Genesis is narrative is not a Fundamentalist position only - it's the view of all OT commentators and scholars that I know of.

You also not very convincingly changed the subject and turned to ad hominems. This is usually done when someone cannot back up their position on something.

 

There is no point in me posting anything.

If you can read hebrew like you claim...what would be the point. I have nothing in common with someone who claims the equivalent of "the sky isn't blue" or "water isn't wet".

We can't be worshipping the same Jesus either. So I am outta here...if the mods can somehow delete my profile it would be a blessing...I am gonna delete this link outta my favorites.

I ain't here to argue...I am here to help and assist and support...with those who want it. Not sit here and split hairs. You may not claim to be a fundamentalist...but if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and smells like a duck...it is probably a duck.

 

Did you notice that this is a debate forum?

And how were you helping by not giving one shred of evidence for your point aside from knowing rabbis who chant?

I'm sorry, but nothing I said has anything to do with Fundamentalism. It was simply offering fact and reasonable points.

 

The point is to substantiate what you are claiming with reputable sources. It should be easy, if it is as you say. If you want my side, read Harrison, Archer, or any other OT Intro for starters.

The point is that being able to read Hebrew means that one can see through your posts. No one ever says that Hebrew poetry rhymes. That was a dead giveaway that you don’t know what you are talking about. Furthermore, in Hebrew, poetry is much harder to read than narrative is. The language is different, the structure is different, etc. If you can actually read Hebrew, you know that.

Me either, so we have that in common. But no one here has claimed that, unless it is you.

Perhaps not. I don’t really know. I worship the Jesus who is God, who came in human flesh to die for sin, who rose from the dead, and who is returning to redeem his people.

There’s not really much of an argument here. You have yet to produce any evidence for your position. I suspect you are backing out because you can’t. It is easier to run than to admit you can’t give us names of people to read.

Then help by giving names. I am an OT PhD student. I want to know who believes this so I can study it. Today, I emailed and asked an OT ThD who has been teaching for almost thirty years if he knew of anyone who said that the Torah was primarily poetic. He responded with one word: No. Now, what do you know that an OT ThD with thirty years of teaching and study and writing doesn’t know? Why can’t you give us these names?

Who said anything about fundamentalism. Whether I am or not in your definition is hard to tell because I don't know what you think a fundamentalist is. But the Bible is not a game that we play. The Bible is the foundation of our faith and if that foundation is other than what it claims to be, then we have problems.

This is about the OT, particularly the Torah. So deal with the issues.

Just cite the authors of works who claim that the Torah is primarily poetic. It’s easy. You can prove that there are some, and we can read them and see what they say.

Why not just do that?