Adam's Fall = Total Depravity? ; Hardened = Non-Elect?

But everyone else is fair game;huh?

 

Clark said..

in Other words...They are believers

Wesley...said..

In other words...They are believers

Your view from the OP..

I rest my case.

 

Romans 9 Paul is showing why God can do as he pleases....

Therefore he uses the potter story for his arugement.

In 2 Tim 2 Paul has another argument all together. It has nothing to do with if God is just or not, rather what the elect is called to do.

 

He has showen so many errors in Calvinism, it looks like the side of a barn shot with bird shot! :tongue3:

 

The potter in Romans 9 has been misused by Calvinists. Paul was using a reference to Jeremiah chapter 18. Here God says if a nation sins against him he can pull it down and destroy it, or if a nation repents from their sins he can repent from destroying it. So, God does not unconditionally select some men for mercy and others for wrath.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

So, God does not unconditionally elect some men for mercy and pass by others to die under his wrath. Men's actions are the conditions upon which God either builds up or destroys nations. The Jews Paul was speaking to knew these scriptures and no way understood them as Calvinists do.

 

Your quarrel is with Paul, not with Calvinists.
JArthur did not use Romans 9.
He said Paul uses the potter story as argument on why God can do as He pleases, and I add, whether to nations or to men.

 

Paul was speaking to Jews who knew the scriptures of the potter in Jeremiah 18. There is no way they (the Jews) would have believed that Paul was teaching that God unconditionally elects some men to salvation and chooses to pass by others allowing them to perish simply for his pleasure as Calvinism teaches, because that is not what is shown in Jeremiah.

It is Calvinists who misrepresent what Paul was saying. And JArthur brought up the potter in Romans 9, so how can you say he was not using it as his argument?

 

The point is sovereignty. whether with nations or with men, God can do as He pleases and none can question it.

Because he qualified it with his statement that Paul is using the potter scripture in his argument.

 

Good

Whatever Pauls intent, it is clear that he felt some would reject it, because what he said would seem to make God unjust. Therefore he said...
19..One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” NIV

You jump to another passage to answer 9. When chapter 9 has the answer for us.

Please look at the clear list of black and whites.

mercy ... no mercy
compassion ...no compassion
Love...hate
honour ... dishonour
one son....of the other son.

The passage is clear

Hogwash. Again, 2 tim is talking about believers. You once again show your aganda. The passage in 2 tim is telling believers to act in honour of their LORD and MASTER. It has nothing at all to do with election. In Romans 9 the talk is about ELECTION....and God can choose as he wills.

Dead means no life. A dead person can't hear...can't walk, can't talk...can't understand. And BTW..this is how the Bible tells of the non-believer

Then you are wrong.

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."
2 Peter 2:19 - They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed... For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 - God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Proverbs 21:10 - The soul of the wicked desires evil
John 3:19 - And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 8:43-44 - "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Isaiah 1:5-6 - The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.
Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
Job 11:12 - But a stupid man will get understanding when a wild donkey’s colt is born a man!
1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes wickedness.'"
Matthew 7:18 - "A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit."
Matthew 12:34-35 - "How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil."
Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

 

ok...:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

it is what it is...

And you are telling us this because you feel we have never looked?

The OT is viewed in light of the NT. Paul uses this passage to tell us the meaning. The meaning is ELECTION. Romans 9....its clear.

The old nation bit is old and don't work my friend. What nation is without people?

Tell that to God, he wrote Romans 9

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that .........the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth....You just can't get around it.

:laugh: good one

 

i have no idea what you are talking about here

 

Pauls intent in light of the NT is to show what the OT means. Its all there in Romans 9. Just believe Paul, or say that Paul was using it out of context.

 

They all know they can't get around it, yet they keep at it like mad cows.

 

A question for Freewillers: Did GOD elect certain from Israel to Salvation in the Old Testament?