Adam's Fall = Total Depravity? ; Hardened = Non-Elect?

Of course, did you read my post? This is called "diatribe." But what "reader" would have this objection? (An elect believer? A hardened Jew? An Arminian thinker?) That is the question I posed which seemed to fly right over your head. Calvinists presume it answers OUR (a non-Calvinists) objection and I showed you why that is not true, but you ran right past that argument to make obvious statements as if you are teaching me something I don't know or haven't addressed. If you are not going to even attempt to follow my arguments I really see no reason to continue this conversation. I am trying to be patient with you, but I have to know you are genuinely trying and I'm not convinced you are.

And I'm sure you are aware that even Calvinistic scholars understand that the "hate/love" language is about a divine choice of one over the other and not literal "hatred" as we think of hatred. A God who expresses his universal love for the world and commands his followers to love their enemies does not "hate" Esau in the sense that you seem to be arguing. Most Calvinistic scholars also at least acknowledge the national representation of these two brothers. And most non-Calvinistic scholars recognize and address the effect this national election plays on the individuals within those nations.

It's called Hermeneutics. Look it up. You read your interpretation into the text based upon your Calvinistic dogma. For example, when you read Paul say, "God has mercy on some and hardens some," you read into that sentence that Paul means, "God selects a few people to save and condemns the rest to hell." You read that into the text based upon you Calvinistic presumptions.

I, on the other hand, practice the number 1 rule in Hermeneutics, which is to look at the WHOLE context. I read what Paul goes on to say about those being shown mercy and those being hardened. I read Paul teach that those being hardened might be provoked to envy and saved (11:14) and that they can be grafted back into the tree that they were cut off from if they leave their unbelief (11:23). I also read that those currently being show mercy better not get too arrogant because they can also be cut off. (11:20-21)

You have yet to deal with these passages. Why? Because they are not in the same chapter?

Of course I have read verse 11. I'm just not reading a Calvinistic presupposition into that text. I've already explained to you the purpose of God's choice of Jacob. And believe it or not we do hold to a doctrine of election, its just not the same as yours. I would explain it to you again if I felt like it wouldn't fall upon deaf ears.

And if you were addressing my arguments with any sense of objectivity you would recognize and acknowledge that I agree that God is in control. He is in control over His temporary hardening of Israel and His engrafting of the Gentiles.

Well, since you weren't willing to even consider chapters 10 and 11 I thought you might need that reminder, so you're welcome.

You, the one not willing to address the chapters surrounding our passage, are telling me, "context is king?" Ironic.

I've been asking you to address the "flow of the text" sense we started this discussion and still nothing. You do realize these little one liners are not arguments, don't you?

You do know re-quoting a verse I have already provided an interpretation for is not an argument, don't you? If this is going to be a discussion you must actually address my arguments and stop just restating your position and quoting scriptures with certain words emboldened. That is fruitless. I already know what you believe. I used to teach it.

I agree. The Gentiles have also be chosen to receive the gospel. The Gentiles have been grafted into the tree. All the while, Israel, with exception of the Remnant, are being hardened. This is very simple to understand. You don't have to agree with it, but if you could just restate my position in your own words so I know that you at least understand what you oppose that would be nice. So far I'm not convinced you are even aware of my position.

I notice you emboldened the phrase "Behold I am laying in Zion a Stone that will make men stumble, a Rock that will make them fall."

That stone is called the "Skandalon," a nickname I selected because of this verse. Do you even understand why I would do that? Do you know my position well enough to explain why I would think the "Skandalon" (the rock of offense) would be laid in Israel (Zion)? Think about it and let me know.

 

I hadn't seen this response when I replied to your last post. I'm glad you are at least willing to deal with the "flow of the text." Thank you...

I agree. (Have you noticed I say that a lot? I think that is because you don't know my position well enough to even recognize our points of contention. I agree that Paul is showing that the Jews are not the only ones who have been elected and I agree that God does has he pleases.

"I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."... Who is Paul talking about? The Gentiles. As apposed to the Nation he has held out his hands to for ever, as Paul says: 21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

So, the Jews are being hardened (with the exception of the Remnant of Israel who God has reserved to carry the message to the world...people like Paul, Peter etc). The message is going to the Gentiles and they are listening (Acts 28:28).

Correct. Israel, the natural descendants of Abraham, failed to obtain what it sought by "obedience to the Law." Only those chosen few, the Remnant chosen out of Israel to bring the message of the cross to the world, obtained it. The rest of the Jews were hardened/blinded and "made insensible to it."

Now, keep reading and let's find out what happens to "the rest" who were blinded, okay?

8As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day.
9And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a
10Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.

So, they (Jews who are being hardened):

1. have been given a spirit of stupor where they can't see or hear
2. have a table that has become a snare
3. have had their eyes darkened so they can't see

Jarthur, I want you to notice three things about these hardened individuals.

(1) They weren't born in this condition. They BECAME hardened and calloused over time and God judicially blinded them in that condition. In other words, this inability to hear, see and understand is not a condition from birth as your dogma suggests.

(2) This condition is unique to the Jews who were being hardened and not to all mankind. Just as Paul states, "For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" Notice the contrast between the Jews who are hardened and the Gentiles who are not?

(3) These hardened Jews cannot be the "non-elect reprobates" you suppose they are because look what Paul goes on to say in the very next verse about these hardened Jews.

11So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means!

See? They are not certain to be condemned. They have not stumbled so as to certainly fall!!!!

What might happen? Paul tells us plainly:

14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. ...23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Who is Paul's "own people" who might be provoked to envy and saved, Jarthur? It is the hardened Jew that he has been talking about through this whole context. Who might be grafted back in if they leave their unbelief? The hardened Jew!

The very fact that you even think that addresses any point of disagreement proves you have yet to understand our views. Of course God can and does hardening the Jews, what do you think I've been saying? Please try to understand BEFORE you respond.

I acknowledged that Jarthur. They can and do reject God, something a "DEAD" man couldn't do in real life. You don't even see the double standard of your position. You argue on the one hand that a dead man in the analogy can't do anything. He can't see, hear, respond or ANYTHING, but when I point out what HE CAN do in your system (resist and reject) you fail to see how that contradicts the very claim you have made about a "dead man" in your analogy. If he is "dead" in a more "literal" sense as you argue then it only would stand to reason that even a respond of resistance and repulsion would be impossible. Thus, the best you can do is read your interpretation into to the text, just as you accuse me of doing.

When you read this passage you think those who are "children of the devil" are the non-elect reprobates, right? But aren't we all born as "children of the devil" who need to be saved?

And when Paul says, "You are unable to hear what I am saying." You think he is addressing the condition of their heart from birth because of being born "totally depraved," right? But isn't Paul's audience in this passage the Jewish leaders of the Law who are being hardened in their rebellion so that they cannot hear, see, understand and believe? As the passage above (Act 28) tells us, the Jews are being hardened, but the "Gentiles will listen." So, this inability of his audience to hear is a result of the temporary hardening of Israel, not a the natural condition of all mankind from birth. (John 12:39-41)

Oh, Jarthur, please, please, please pay attention. Who is listening to God at this time in history? Who is learning from Christ? The Remnant of Israel.

The Gentiles have not been sent the gospel yet, that doesn't happen until Paul is sent and Peter has his dream, right? So, if the Remnant of Israel (people like the apostles) are the only ones being clearly shown the truth and have been reserved from the hardening process of Israel couldn't it be that Paul is addressing the condition of the hardened Jews as apposed to the rest? Just think about it. Understand it before you respond, PLEASE!

 

Oh brother. Go back and read it again, please. I asked a rhetorical question that I then provided an answer for as a means to make an argument...one you didn't ever even address. I'll just skip ahead to something of substance, I'm not participating in nonsensical banter anymore...

And I AGREE!!! God can harden whoever he wills, just as he can save whoever he wills. We believe He wills to save whosoever believes in him, and you believe he wills to save whosoever he effectually causes to believe in Him. So what? That doesn't address our point of contention. Why? Because you don't understand our point of contention yet.

Who does God wish to harden, Jarthur?

Could it be the people who he has held out his hands to for ever? Could it be the Jews? Romans 10:21 answers that question for you, as does a dozen other verses in this context.

You think God wishes to hardened the "non-elect reprobates," but then explain to me how it can be that those being hardened might be provoked to envy and saved? Can the non-elect reprobates be saved, Jarthur?

Never said that the Jews were the only ones being addressed in Romans 9. In fact, I have clearly explained that there are 3 groups of individual being addressed in Romans 9-11.

1. Hardened Israel: The natural descendants of Abraham who at this time in history are being blinded and "cut off from the tree" (sent a spirit of stupor) so as not to be able to hear, see and respond in faith to the clear gospel truth.

2. The Remnant of Israel: The natural descendants of Abraham who at this time in history are not being blinded or cut off, but instead have been chosen for the noble purpose of bringing the message of reconciliation to the world.

3. Gentiles: The non-Jews who are being grafted into the tree so that they can listen to the appeal of the message of reconciliation and respond in faith. They are not being hardened like Israel, but they will listen (Acts 28:28)


So, yes, individuals are included in these groups, both from Israel and not from Israel. Do you understand?

 

Of course not, but he is an example of one, like the Israelites of Paul's day, who was hardened in their rebellion.

Pharaoh was blinded from the truth of the plagues so as to accomplish the first passover, in the same way that Israel was blinded from the truth of Christ (the Skandalon) so as to accomplish the true PASSOVER. Both acts of judicial hardening were employed by God to accomplish a greater redemptive purpose. The first being the redemption of Israel from slavery to Egypt, the second being the redemption of the world from slavery to sin. It's all quite prophetic and beautiful.

 

Oh, good, then it should be real easy to point to the others scriptures that teach that ALL mankind (not just Israel at this time) are born in the hardened condition where they are unable to see, hear, understand and repent when confronted by the gospel of reconciliation. I'll wait to get that passage from you.

What specifically have I misrepresented about Calvinism Jarthur? If you are going to make an accusation be willing to support it with a specific quote and an argument as to how I have misrepresented the Calvinistic views. How about you actually tell us what you do agree with and what you don't agree with and explain why; then maybe we can have a fruitful discussion that doesn't turn into weak ad hominem attacks.

I understand that, which is why I quoted to you several passages that indicate what men could do "otherwise." (had they not become hardened) Remember this:

Acts 28:24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

So, you don't believe that those referred to as being "hardened" in Romans 9 are "non-elect reprobates?" Please expound.

Neither do I. God can hardened anyone at anytime he chooses, including today. But we are talking about what God is doing at that time in history and for what reason he is doing it. Paul explains that the hardening/blinding of Israel is temporary and unique to Israel (Rm 11:25; Acts 28:28; John 12:39-41 etc).

Why then would you take those passages which describe a unique and temporary condition of Israel (unable to see, hear, understand and repent) as proof texts to support the concept that all men are born in this condition due to the Fall? Where is the proof? Draw the lines to connect these two dots.

But the Gentiles weren't being "blinded" by God as were the Jews at this time. As Paul states, "they will listen." (Acts 28:28)

Yes, Gentiles, as a people, where "blind" (better stated, "unaware") to God's special revelations because they didn't receive them. Those were sent to Israel. The prophets when to Israel, the scripture went to Israel, the commandments when to Israel etc. But, for the most part, Israel rejected these revelations of God and thus GREW or BECAME hardened to them...the Gentiles had not...they were just ignorant of them.

Now, Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, is taking the special revelation of God to them and they are listening. They are believing. They are NOT being blinded from hearing, seeing and understanding the gospel. The Jews are!

Anyone who thinks that those being hardened in Romans 9-11 are the "non-elect" reprobates. If you don't think that, then please explain what it is you do think.

Ok, that ends our discussion until you actually deal with my arguments. Your immature banter only reveals your lack of understanding the historical points of contention between our two perspectives. You clearly are more interested in one liners, quibbling and avoiding arguments with which you have no understanding. From this point forward I will only respond to serious arguments from you, the rest will be ignored.

 

No, as I stated previously:

Never said that the Jews were the only ones being addressed in Romans 9. In fact, I have clearly explained that there are 3 groups of individual being addressed in Romans 9-11.

1. Hardened Israel: The natural descendants of Abraham who at this time in history are being blinded and "cut off from the tree" (sent a spirit of stupor) so as not to be able to hear, see and respond in faith to the clear gospel truth.

2. The Remnant of Israel: The natural descendants of Abraham who at this time in history are not being blinded or cut off, but instead have been chosen for the noble purpose of bringing the message of reconciliation to the world.

3. Gentiles: The non-Jews who are being grafted into the tree so that they can listen to the appeal of the message of reconciliation and respond in faith. They are not being hardened like Israel, but they will listen (Acts 28:28)

Not exactly. Judicial hardening is God's active work to blind someone from the truth. The Jews are being blinded from the gospel so that they will not believe it. Why? If the Jews all believed in Christ's message they wouldn't have killed him. And, as Paul explains, God is blinding the Jews so as to make room for the Gentiles. What does that mean? I think it means that the Jews are a stubborn people who are bigoted against the Gentiles and would never allow them full entrance into the church. As we see from the Judizers of Paul's day, they are very difficult to convince. So, God is blinding the Jews temporarily so as to allow the fulness of Gentiles to come into the church...to establish themselves. In doing so, this will provoke the Jews to envy so that some might see the life changing results of the Gentiles who were once very sinful and they too might reconsider the gospel and come to faith.

The Gentiles can't be hardened to a message they have never heard. Hardening is a process by which someone is revealed a truth over and over again. The message, at this time in history, is just now being sent to the Gentile people. "They will listen." The Jews will not because they are hardened to it.

That sounds fine. I appreciate your apparent desire to understand my position before critiquing it. That is refreshing.

 

Awww, just when I thought you had turned over a new leaf...

Actually, if you could care less, then that means you care some. I think you meant to say, "I couldn't care less."

Could you provide a specific "misquote." Yes, I have assumed you hold to the basic tenets of Calvinism at times, but you have yet to show me where I've deferred from your specific beliefs. Please feel free to correct me where I am mistaken.

Total Depravity is the Calvinist doctrine that teaches everyone is born in a state of corruption (as a result of original sin) to such a degree that apart from a prior work of regeneration no man can willingly turn from his sin and have faith in the gospel message of reconciliation.

I look forward to that. Thanks