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All are saved by grace.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 1689Dave, May 19, 2019.

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  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The Arminian must believe before he would choose to believe (a form of repentance). The Calvinist must believe before he chooses to repent. It's just in how we define repentance. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So all are saved by grace before they decide anything.
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    From my own experience, as I consider it, I was repentant before I accepted Christ. I don't think God must work in a chronological order with every person, but that's how I remember it.

    Peace to you
     
  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You were born again or you would not have been repentant. The flesh loves sin and hates God.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No if you already been given a new heart of being born again there would be nothing there to repent.

    Repent is the command to change.

    Look at the order it happens

    Ezekiel 18

    31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”



    Notice he doesn't say LIVE and repent, its REPENT and LIVE.

    He doesn't say I will make you alive so then you can repent.


    “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies",

    He doesn't say I get glory from the death of reprobates.




    God says YOU HAVE THE CAPACITY.

    Deuteronomy 30

    11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.



    God clearly states his commands may be followed and declarations of impossibility are FALSE.

    You can HEAR IT, and you CAN DO IT.

    States clearly its not something HIDDEN ->it is not hidden from thee

    It is not a DIVINE IMPOSSIBILITY >> neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven,

    that we may hear it, and do it


    Calvinism has ZERO scripture to support lack or loss of ability.

    Had Adam and Eve lost it, That would have been the Number ONE penalty God mention instead he goes thru a list and never mentions inability.
     
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  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    how does the flesh repent having nothing but sinful choices to choose from? Only the born again can repent.
     
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  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Nothing says your only flesh.

    "Only the born again can repent"
    Chapter and verse.

    I can quote scripture all day, show me the backwards version.


    Acts 11

    18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

    REPENTANCE THAT LEADS TO LIFE

    He does not say Life that leads to repentance.

    What would he have to say to show you its REPENTANCE that leads to life?



    John 5

    40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


    Notice Jesus doesn't say Well I am not willing that you have life so you won't come to Me.


    John 6

    53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

    Again its not BACKWARDS-----> Unless I choose to give you life then you will eat the flesh and drink the blood.


    John 20

    31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


    SAME ORDER AGAIN AND AGAIN. Doesn't say you have LIFE then you will believe.


    Acts 15

    9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

    Heart is cleansed by FAITH.

    Doesn't say heart gets cleansed regenerated which brings faith.


    James 1

    18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


    He got us with the word of truth. You would say a reprobate would not even recognize the word. That he would have to begat us first to finally recognize the truth.


    We can keep going and going.


    I think part of the problem is the lack of humility to accept THE GOSPEL as GOD's actual DIVINE MEANS by which he changes the heart of a person rather than a qualification for change.

    Its not a invisible button on your back, but the visible word of the Lord that is Jesus Christ.

    Its WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH which we are reborn.
     
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  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit...........
     
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  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I have been wondering, mostly what has happened to the gospel of Grace? I shake my head and think back why it was so difficult to find a good Church in this post modern climate. Could it be that evangelicalism has become worldly... evangelical church’s now seek the worlds wisdom and follow the worlds agenda. The Bible is unusable to to meet the demands of postmodern times. By itself, Gods word is insufficient to win people to Christ, promote spiritual growth, provide practical guidance, or transform society. So churches supplement the plain teaching of scripture with entertainment, group therapy, political activism, signs and wonders— anything that promises to appeal to religious consumers.

    So wouldn’t it make sense for pastors and people in the pews to add some humanism into worship to soften it up to some degree. There you have it Dave, people decide to accept the worlds theology of human achievement, saving room for their own personal contribution to salvation.
     
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  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I think being part of a world that depends on law and free will makes it hard not to interpret scripture that way. And scripture depends on free will in matters of OT law. But if we drag free will into the NT, it turns the gospel into law and grace into works. Unless we renew our minds, we cannot discern much of NT truth.
     
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  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely... you must be born anew
     
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  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I’m not sure they understand regeneration
    the way we understand regeneration.

    Regeneration is a work of God by which a spiritually dead person is brought to life in Christ (John 5:24) having been given a new nature in which what was once a heart of stone now becomes a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19) and the individual is brought out of darkness into Gods wonderful light (1Peter 2:9). It involves a change in one’s character so that they become “a new creature” in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:17
     
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  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It's all about law and free will imposed on the NT where grace replaces law. They turn the gospel into law and grace into works.
     
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  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Did they tell you this?
     
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If salvation is conditional, the gospel becomes law and grace gives way to works. The gospel simply announces salvation for those who believe. If people must force themselves to choose to believe, it is because they don't believe.
     
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  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    So repentance is a work?

    Aren't "good fruits" basically good works?
     
  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    They are the effect of, not the means of salvation
     
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  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Of course, it is then a gun to your head, your money or your life. Make your choice!
     
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  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    OK, try to follow this and then answer my question, please.

    Utilyan made a post about repentance, quoting Acts 11:18 which says that repentance leads to life (among other verses.)

    You blithely respond "A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit..." You are clearly saying repentance is "good fruit". In Biblical terminology "good fruit", are good works, originating with the Holy Spirit's influence on a believer's life.

    So are you saying that repentance is a work?
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Clearly the flesh stands for our sinfulness. But you are not ONLY sinfulness.

    When Paul brings it up it is about OUR response to the flesh rather than the flesh being our response.

    If everything about you was SIN there would be nothing there to SAVE.



    "The gospel simply announces salvation for those who believe."

    No THE WORD literally is JESUS CHRIST. It is not ink and paper it is FLESH and BLOOD, Jesus Christ is the word.

    John 1

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.



    James 1

    18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,


    You are saying Jesus Christ does not save, Rather God the father saves by pushing a button on his robot.




    1 Corinthians 15

    1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.



    by which also you are saved. He could have said "The gospel simply announces salvation for those who believe."

    He does not.


    Again the problem here is of humility and not thinking through even God's own sovereign capacity.

    It is GOD's Word that saves but you can't equate God's chosen means of the WORD to his credit unless he personally walks down from heaven opens the fuse box in your head and flips a switch.


    I Have no doubt if God WANTED to run a system of Calvinism He could. He has the omnipotence to do what he wants.

    What I ask Calvinist is it possible to run a system that is not Calvinism. I'm not insisting he hasn't, but does he have the capacity to do things differently. Or is it believed for God to win a game of checkers, chess or poker he has to fix your losing hand and choose your losing moves.
     
  20. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    The Calvinism debates have gone from interesting to assanine. Do you think the 13 Apostles sat around debating this crap?
     
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