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All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Feb 24, 2019.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    The question is at what point did all men sin in verse 12. Paul uses the aorist tense as a completed action. Does this refer to the point when each man eventually sins in their own person or does it refer to "all men" as one undivided human nature in one man - Adam when he sinned?

    I believe it refers to the latter for the following reasons:

    1. Death is received by all men at birth rather than at the point they sin individually and this is precisely the argument Paul makes in verses 13-14. Death precedes an individualized sin and death is "condemnation" for sin and therefore it must refer to a sin prior to their birth and the only universal sin prior to birth of all mankind is violation referred to in Genesis 2:17 "in the day...ye shall surely die."

    2. It is by "one man's disobedience" many be dead, many be condemned, many be made sinners rather than by the disobediences of many many be dead, many be condemend, many be made sinners and this is precisely the argument Paul makes in verses 15-19.

    3. All mankind are "in Adam" by creation just as all saved mankind are "in Christ" by new creation (Eph. 2:10). Both men act in behalf of all who are in them (Rom. 5:15,17).
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    While I hold the opposite view, I do appreciate this well stated, clear presentation of the traditional view.
    Good Job!!

    And let me say I do not know this view is wrong, or that my view is right, but in concluding what this ambiguous statement means, we have parted company.

    Let me offer the alternate view, we were "made" sinners. Now that might not mean we are guilty of Adam's sin, for God does not punish the child for the sins of the father, but that our spiritual state (separated from God) is that of sinners. Paul tells us that babies in the womb have not done anything bad, so we have not sinned yet, but we are sinners due to our separation from God.

    The word translated sinned includes two ideas, one the act or thought that misses the mark, and two, the consequence of the miss. "For all sinned" refers to all receiving the consequences of Adam's sin, both the separation (conceived in the spiritually dead separated from God state) and conceived in a corrupted state predisposed to volitionally sin.

    Yes I know its a long way around the barn, but in my opinion, it is the only view consistent with all scripture.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    AW.Pink: the Atonement;

    No satisfactory answer can be given till we go right back to the counsels of the Godhead. Covenant oneness accounts for all, vindicates all, explains all.

    Christ was substituted for His people because He was and is one with them — identified with us and we with Him; not merely as decreed by the sovereign authority of the Godhead, but as covenanted between the eternal Father and the eternal Son. Christ “bore the sins of many” because in His covenant identification with them, their sins became sinlessly but truly His sins; and unto the sons and daughters of the covenant, the Father imputes the righteousness of His Son, because, in their covenant oneness with Him, His righteousness is undeservedly but truly their own righteousness. This alone explains all Christ’s history as the incarnate Son of God; all His interposition as the Savior of His people; and it places the career of Christ on earth in its true relation to the eternal purpose of God. In its completeness, as bearing on the covenant-clients as well as the covenant- Head, it is the formal instrument by which faith comes into sure possession of Christ Himself and the benefits of redemption.

    Christ is expressly denominated “the last Adam” ( 1 Corinthians 15:45), and therefore are we told that the first Adam was “the figure of Him that was to come” ( Romans 5:14). Adam was a “figure” of Christ in quite a number of ways, but supremely in this, that he stood as the federal head of a race. God entered into a covenant with him ( Hosea 6:6, margin), and therefore he stood and fell as the legal representative of all his family: when he sinned, they sinned; when he died, they died ( Romans 5:12-19). So was it with the “last Adam”: He stood as the covenant Head and federal Representative of all His people, being legally one with them, so that He assumed and discharged all their responsibilities. The birth of Christ was the begun manifestation of the eternal union between Him and His people.

    In the Covenant, Christ had said to the Father, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the Church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which Godhath given me” ( Hebrews 2:12,13).

    Most blessedly is this explained in what immediately follows: “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same,” and therefore “He is not ashamed to call them brethren.” Federation is the root of this amazing mercy, covenantidentification is the key which explains it. Christ came not to strangers, but to “brethren”; He came here not to procure a people for Himself, but to secure a people already His ( Ephesians 1:4; Matthew 1:21).

    Since such a union has existed between Christ and His people from all eternity, it inevitably followed that, when He came to earth, He must bear their sins, and now that He has gone to heaven they must be clothed ( Isaiah 61:10) with all the rewardableness of His perfect obedience. This is the strongest buttress of all in the walls of Truth, yet the one which has been most frequently assailed by its enemies. Men have argued that the punishment of the Innocent as though He were guilty was an outrage upon justice. In the human realm, to punish a man for something of which he is neither responsible nor guilty, is, beyond question, unjust. But this principle did not apply to Christ, for He had voluntarily identified Himself with His people in such an intimate way that it could be said, “For both He that sanctifieth, and they who are sanctified, are all of one ” ( Hebrews 2:11).

    When we say that the union between Christ and His people is a federal one, we mean that it is of such a nature as to involve an identification of legal relations and reciprocal obligations and rights: “By the obedience of One shall many be made [legally constituted] righteous” ( Romans 5:19).
     
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  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    The phrase “by birth” can infer a genetic component to sin, something alien to original biblical intentions... Our DNA doesn’t produce sin, and doesn’t change upon coming to faith.

    Per Romans 5.13, as humans we were held accountable to God once Adam sinned. In other words, Adams sin brought accountability for sin upon humanity.

    Rob
     
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  5. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    There is some sin connected with each human because each human dies, huh? We are born the same as Adam after the fall.
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I do not know where brethren come up with the age of accountability?... The age of accountability is birth!... Brother Glen:)

    Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Tyndale 1946
    Sinning in a manner like Adam refers to volitional sin, Adam knew God had said not to eat the fruit, but He ate it anyway. Before humans are able to know they are going against God (or against what they think is right) refers to the age of accountability. For example, babes in the womb have not done anything bad. They are condemned from conception, not because they chose to sin, but because they were "made sinners." So the idea is that before the age of accountability, before the person is able to sin volitionally, they are not storing up wrath for their thoughts and actions, but of course they are already condemned.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Those opposed this view often cite Ezekiel 18 and the fact that post-fallen sinful children are not condemned for the sinful acts of post-fallen sinful fathers. However, this has NO application to the prefallen origin of sin and the representative sinless man Adam and the impact of his singular sin upon his descendents. Adam acted at least in a representative capacity for all mankind. Those in Ezekiel 18 do not act in that same capacity and so citing Ezekiel 18 is eisegesis not exegesis.

    Moreover, being "made sinners" cannot be divorced from the context as being "made sinners" is directly and inseparably contextually related to one man's sin AND by that same singular sin many were equally "condemned" and "be dead."

    Paul's clear argument is that all men sinned when Adam sinned as all men existed as one undivided human nature within one sinless man - Adam. Death is "passed" down through the male seed (not the female) and that is why Christ was born of the seed of the woman not the seed of the man.
     
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  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well once in church I heard a preacher make this analogy from the pulpit... He said now this may step on the toes of some folk but babies are born sinners... Now you are probably asking yourself, the little fella is innocent how can he possibly sin?... Well I will show you... Now you that have been parents, have you ever picked up the little one after they have been crying, thinking there is something wrong, we all have... They won't eat, so they're not hungry, they don't need changing, they're as dry as a bone and they are happy and cooing now that you picked them up... Brethren that little one just told a lie... Yeah accountable at birth... And all of us are guilty who are reading this now, that little fella many, many years ago was you and I... Brother Glen:)
     
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  10. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I am not trying to say that children below the age of accountability go to hell but that they do die because they are Adam's children.
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, you are dead wrong! Romans 5:17-19 makes it clear we are accountable for Adam's sin because we sinned in him as one undivided human nature. Romans 5:13-14 does not teach we are merely held accountable once Adam sinned, but rather death of those between Adam and Moses can only be accounted by universal violation of law in Genesis 2:17. Babies die in the womb because all humanity existed in one man and acted as one man in violating God's law in Genesis 2:17 and thus "all have sinned' when Adam sinned and verses 17-19 make this perfectly clear as it is not many sins committed by many that make many sinners or be dead or condemned but one sin by one man. Death is "passed" down not through our accountability because infants can die in the womb, thus proving that death is passed down because it is inherent in the human nature through the seed of the male. That is why the promise of a savior was through the "seed of a woman" not a male.
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Feb 24, 2019
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  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Death is what is "passed" down! Paul does not say "accountability" for our own sins is what is passed down (although we are accountable for our own sins)! The text makes it clear we are being held accountible for the sin of Adam himself because it is that singular sin that condemns us to death, makes us sinners. It is that sin makes us "dead" NOT OUR INDIVIDUALIZED SINS! Our individualized sins are mere consequences of that singular sin as it is that singular sin is responsible for us being "made sinners." That "death" which is passed down is first spiritual death = spiritual separation from the source of life - God "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) which brings condemnation of physical death.
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    1. Romans 5:12 makes the assertion that death entered into this world by one man and by one sin and that death is "passed" down to all men because "all have sinned" at the very same punctilliar point in time when that one man sinned and therefore all are justifiably condemned to death.

    2. Romans 5:13-19 defends that assertion.

    a. Romans 5:13-14 deals with a specific period of time between Adam and Moses to prove universal death can have no other justifiable source than universal violation of Genesis 2:17 Law. Dying infants do not violate the law of conscience and adults did not violate the law of Moses and so universal death cannot be justified outside and apart form violation of Genesis 2:17 by one man - Adam in whom the whole undivided human nature existed and acted as one man.

    b. Romans 5:15-19 denies that death is due to sins plural by sinners plural but justification for universal death, condemnation, being made sinners are all caused by one man and one sin.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Death was part of the good creation. After Adam sinned, they were deprived of the tree of life, so that they would not live forever in that sinful state (Genesis 3:22). The common failure in traditional theology is a failure to understand how finite good man is thrown into a sinful state by having God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22). Because of sin, death is now the enemy which now must be done away with.
     
  15. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I am not sure that I understand your comment about the role of death. My opinion is that Eve brought death into the world and that God does not desire the death of a sinner but that he may turn from his wicked ways and live--to paraphrase the English Book of Common Prayer.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once in Christ we are not accountable for our sins, yet from our perspective we sin, are convicted and strive to avoid sin in the future. Before (as babes) we know this or that is sin, God would not count those actions against us. Before the age of accountability, we did not store up wrath due to God's grace. Note the difference, the view does not say little ones do not miss the mark, only they are unaware of the mark.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Fascinating point, one that I had not considered. Thanks

    If I understand your view, Adam before the fall was finite physically, but was spiritually eternal. After the fall, he remained finite physically, but was now spiritually dead, separated from God. So it is being spiritually dead that is the enemy which now must be "overcome."

    Is that your view??
     
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Who would you prefer to be accountable for whether you go to Hell or not? Yourself or God?

    Do we ultimately save ourselves by being accountable for ourselves? Can we birth ourselves, from above?
     
  19. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry but I really do not understand your question.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Based on Genesis 2:17 death existed else God spoke of what did not yet have any real meaning.
     
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