"all have sinned"

It doesn't matter what I believe. Look at your previous post--the one I referred to. It matters how I post it. Was there a personal attack in it?

 

None of these quotes have anything to do with what we are discussing.

 

Now that is funny. While accusing someone of doing something you are at the exact same time doing it yourself.

That is so grand!:laugh:

 

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought I saw where we were discussing whether infants who die go to heaven or hell.

I personally believe all infants and little children who die go to heaven because they do not understand right from wrong and are therefore innocent. It is not that they do not sin, little children often sin, but they do not understand the consequences of their sin before God. There are many verses to support this.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Not only does this show that little children cannot truly comprehend the difference between good and evil, it shows they have free will and choice as well.

Jonah 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Here God rebukes Jonah for having mercy on a gourd, and God says should he not have mercy on Ninevah that has 120,000 children who do not know between their right hand and their left hand? God even compares them to cattle which do not know right from wrong.

You have to know right from wrong before you can be held accountable. Even man knows this, we do not send little children to jail when they do wrong, nor the mentally handicapped or those who are truly insane.

 

For the first time in history, there is nothing in this post that I disagree with. Who are you arguing with?

 

Yes, I know.
That is precisely why I missed the topic of the thread when I first posted here a few hours ago. I couldn't see it for all the name-calling and demeaning posts being made. Isn't that a grand testimony for all reading this thread.

Now can we get back to the OP and start posting with civility.

 

Winman said:

Ultimately you both come to the same conclusion. But you both start from a very different theological position.

I tend to agree with Luke on this one. We are born in sin (Psalm 51:1), that is, with an inherited sin nature that is passed on from Adam.
I believe that Winman's belief is that the child is innocent until he sins, but the Bible states that we are all guilty for we are born guilty under the law. We have inherited a sin nature. We are born into Satan's family and thus, must be born again; this time into God's family.

You both arrive at the same conclusion in regards to infants.
But your starting points are different.
Do I have it right?

 

I think so.

I am actually not sure that Winman's position is that bad on this matter. Willis and Webdog's positions are pretty terrible.

I think Winman believes that babies need the cross to get to heaven because babies, like the rest of the human race, are sinners.

Willis literally believes that babies are not sinners. That they suffer physically from sin's effects- but not spiritually.

If they do not suffer spiritually from sin then they do not need the blood of Christ to get into heaven.

Therefore, the VAST majority of the human population in heaven is there without the cross.

 

No. We are discussing whether or not babies need to be saved by the cross.

If you believe babies are born without sin then they do not need the cross to get to heaven. They do not NEED the Lamb of God. They cannot sing the song of the Redeemed in heaven for eternity. They have NOT BEEN redeemed because they do not NEED to be redeemed because, according to Webdog and Willis, they have no actual sin to be redeemed from.

Take a minute and look at the OP at the statistics I found.

MOST who die each year- are children.

Since MOST adults are NOT going to heaven and ALL babies ARE going to heaven, babies outnumber adults there perhaps as much as 100 to 1.

So, once again, the VAST majority of the human race in heaven cannot sing the song of the Redeemed nor praise the Lamb who died for them.

 

The next time you want to use the word ignorant either talk to your children or look in a mirror. You are one disgusting pastor. Thank God I will never come in contact with you!

 

I say a big AMEN to that! :laugh:

 

I used to believe this as well until I saw many verses that said man has gone astray. Well, what does that mean? A sheep that never belonged to a man's flock cannot be said to be "gone astray". No, you have to first be in the flock to go astray.
Many verses say man has corrupted himself. To corrupt anything means to go from good to bad, you can't corrupt that which is already corrupt.
Many verses say man has turned from God to his own way. How can you turn from God unless you were first with God? If you were always in your own way, how can you "turn" to your own way?
Words have meaning. If we have gone astray, if we have corrupted ourselves, if we have turned, then originally we were not in this condition.

 

There you go, DHK!

He said it to you.

Man is not born a sinner. Tell me this is a fundamentalist position. Tell me this is Orthodox.

I tell you he and his do not CARE about orthodox Christianity or Fundamentalism.

He tosses such notions aside like trash- that is the level of worth he puts on such sacred things.

And he arrogantly thinks that NNE who handed down to us Fundamentalism and Orthodoxy ever considered those phrases that he quotes in Scripture- like he discovered something they did not think of!!!

It is truly AMAZING!

 

This has no place among persons claiming to be Christians. Robert, you are demonstrating something other than Christianity in this post--especially when you say "you are one disgusting pastor." You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Luke, this too is uncalled for. While I do not see your posts as particularly demeaning (and I'll admit I haven't read all the posts all that closely), this particular response is inappropriate.

To Both:

You both need to realize that Jesus Himself said: By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
(John 13:35 ESV)

Neither are you are doing your best to "love your neighbor as yourself."

Now, Robert's comments seem to be the most egregious--because what he said has only one purpose, a personal attack.

Now, having said that, you both, to an extent, are demonstrating something other than Christianity.

While I am not and would not question your (plural) salvation, by seeing how you talk to others and seeing what Jesus Himself says....well, it may cause some to doubt whether you (again, plural) are truly believers.

Remember that the One whom you represent is far more important than your desire to be right or your desire to win an argument. Simply put, you are dragging Christ's name through the mud and this must stop.

A word to the wise should be sufficient.

The Archangel

 

I never said children do not sin. I have eight children, some as old as you (if not older), trust me, I know children sin. What I said is that children are not held accountable, because they cannot comprehend the penalty and consequences of their sin before God.

However, their sin is covered by the blood.

When the nation of Israel sinned in the wilderness, why do you think God made them wander 40 years? They could have covered the distance in a few weeks tops. No, God made them wander until all the adults who sinned died. But he allowed all those who were children when the parents sinned to enter the promised land because they did not know good from evil "in that day". God does not transmit sin or the penalty from parent to child, that would be unjust.

 

As always, Archangel, it is appreciated.

 

I am very happy to hear this- very happy.

 

Paul said sin is the transgression of law, where there is no law, there is no sin.

Paul said he was alive once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and he died.

How could this be? Easy. When he was a child he could not comprehend the law and so was alive. But when he got old enough to understand the law, he became accountable for his sins. Sin revived and killed him.

What law did those from Adam to Moses have? The laws written upon the heart and the conscience. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, this is exactly what happened, they gained this knowledge, and I believe this is what caused their spiritual death.

This knowledge of good and evil is passed down, we all have it, though it takes a few years to develop. Children generally begin to understand right and wrong before God as they approach their teens. This is about the time you can see the direction a person will go in life, good or bad.

So those after Adam knew good and evil, read the scriptures. They knew murder, lying, and stealing was wrong, well before Moses and the law came. Therefore they were accountable and died for their sins.