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All Israel will be Saved: Romans 11:26

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Aug 16, 2010.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, Paul clearly distinguishes between the Gentiles who accept Christ and the Jews in Romans 11, that is the theme of the whole chapter. While Israel is at this time blinded, in the last days a remnant will be saved out of Israel.

    Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    Paul makes it clear he is speaking to Gentile believers in verse 13. But in verse 14 he makes it very clear he is speaking of the Jews "which are my flesh".

    After clearly distinguishing between the Gentiles and Jews he says all Israel shall be saved.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    So, in Romans 11 Paul clearly distinguishes between the Gentiles and Jews according to the flesh and says Israel shall be saved.
     
    #41 Winman, Aug 19, 2010
  2. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    Jim1999,
    This is a correct interpretation as long as it relates to spiritual relationships!
    There should be no dispute regarding the Church as part of Israel's "seed"!!
    But the New Covenant promised to Ephraim and Judah is not yet fulfilled!!!

    I fully agree with Winman's post on future promises made to national Israel!
    I also stress Ezek.47:12 left out of his quotation in the post prior to yours!!
    The "leaves of the tree of life will be for the healing of ALL of the nations"!!!

    These nations will qualify to be "healed by eating these leaves forever" as
    their earthly Kings bring their "honor and glory into the New Jerusalem"! Rev.21:24-26. The KJV refers to these "saved nations"...saved in the same way that the two Houses of Israel/Judah will be saved at the Apocalypse of Jesus and the New Covenant!! This is the eternal Covenant with co-regent David that includes the land, the 12 tribes and the continuation of the nations coming into the New Jerusalem from heaven to worship Jesus Christ, Yeshuah, annually, forever!!!

    At last and for all eternity, "God's will shall be done on Earth (an earthly Paradise)...as it is in heaven".
    Mel
     
    #42 lastday, Aug 19, 2010
  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Since I read about you beating your chest on your chasing away us nasty preterists, I guess I better answer this one point at least: You need to study up some more on just what the Greek perfect means. Get yourself a good primer on Koine Greek. I'm serious.

    The perfect generally refers to an event that has happened at some time in the past (can also be immediate past) with results that last into the present from the standpoint of the writer and the time of writing. I dug out my Wallace and found that he states it pretty succinctly:

    "The force of the perfect tense is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past ... has results existing in the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker).

    ...

    "Chamberlain goes too far when he suggests that the perfect is sometimes used to 'describe an act that has abiding results.'"

    "Even more misleading is the notion, frequently found in commentaries, that the perfect tense denotes permanent or eternal results."
    (p. 573 - 574, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Daniel B. Wallace, italics in original)

    This is what you are doing, Mel. You see that perfect tense and go whole hog with it, stringing it out into perpetuity - contrary to grammar and hermeneutics, not to mention biblical context!

    And you anathematize those who don't go along with your weird quirky interpretation.

    Get yourself a Greek book. It will do you good.
     
    #43 asterisktom, Aug 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2010
  4. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    A haughty Gentile believer? Who are you to call me haughty? Do you know my heart?

    Anyway, Jesus said, "my kingdom is not of this world." The Jews expected a Davidic kingdom, one that was of this world. They expected the wrong thing. The NT authors and Jesus clearly teach us how to understand the ultimate fullfillment of the OT promises, and it is not in a worldly kingdom. It's amazing to me that Christians are falling for the same errors, caused by carnalizing the OT scriptures, that the Jews fell prey to in the first century.
     
    #44 RAdam, Aug 19, 2010
  5. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    RAdam,

    Please do not take it personally that I called you "haughty"!
    This is God's message to the Gentiles who boast too much!!
    This boasting is committed by the false teaching that the Davidic Kingdom has been fulfilled in the Church. It cannot be fulfilled until both Houses of Israel
    and Judah are reunited as ONE when Christ appears in glorified flesh!!!

    I went to Google and my post #33 of 8/18/2010, at 3:15 PM, was #ONE in a list of 4,480 responses. It mentioned "4 posts - 3 authors - Last post: 20 hours ago"
    and referenced the "miserable failure to do justice to a
    PERFECT Participle in I John 4:2. The PERFECT PARTICIPLE means Christ continues in the Flesh ALWAYS. 2 John 1:7: ... Here we have a PERFECT Participle...
    more forceful than a Present Participle"!

    Tom replied in two hours, at 5:13 PM, Post #34, with the weak response
    that "Your Mel- down is giving me flashbacks, Mel, of my Greek classes. You broke several rules in the above flurry of bristling
    all caps. By the way, resorting to all caps does not make you righter"!!

    It took Tom exactly 21 hours on the OTHER THREAD, Post #187, to finally
    "confirm that he had been going over this very point". But Tom doesn't
    refute that the PERFECT PARTICIPLE used in I John 4:2 means much more than simply the "PRESENT tense" John used in 2 John 1:7. In fact Tom had
    berated me for using "CAPS". Tom failed to even refer to the meaning of a
    "perfect participle". My intent was to show John's reference to the Doctrine of Christ is being denied by Preterists and signifies "the spirit of Antichrist"!!!
    Mel
     
    #45 lastday, Aug 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2010
  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Wow, Mel. Are you hunched over the computer all the time with a big wall clock or something? Some of us have a life, and are doing other things.

    Have you ordered your Greek book yet? If you want I can help pick one out for you on Amazon. Your further comments indicate that you still are just winging it right and left. The operative point is not whether it is a participle or not; it is that it is perfect. And, as such, the comments I made still apply. Wallace, in his section on participles, after making other observations (not related to your claim), refers the student back to the section on the perfect tense - which I quoted to you sufficiently enough. To which you interacted not a bit - which is not surprising. You have your grand system all crystallized. You are not going to let, some piddly, meddling points of grammar get in your way.
     
    #46 asterisktom, Aug 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2010
  7. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    Tom Riggle:

    Thanks for doubly fortifying that the Perfect Tense reaches to the Present!

    You even quote someone else to verify the application to Preterists TODAY:
    Again Note: PRESENT time...
    You have unwittingly verified that the Preterist view intensifies the heresy!!
    The use of the PARTICIPLE confirms, beyond doubt, the heresy continues!!!
    Mel
     
    #47 lastday, Aug 19, 2010
  8. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Oh. You are getting your Greek lessons from the University of Google. Picking and choosing from Google, to be more exact. OK. Now I know where you are coming from.
     
    #48 asterisktom, Aug 19, 2010
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You must have one of those goggles that only allows you to see three words in a group. I said:
    "the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker). "

    Maybe if I repeat it again...
    " in relation to the time of the speaker)"

    Who is the speaker/writer? John, the Apostle.
    What time was he writing this? The first century, the 60s AD, to be exact.
    His present is now our past.

    For such the perfect tense - be it participle or not - is entirely appropriate.
     
    #49 asterisktom, Aug 19, 2010
  10. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Tom,
    You are the master of obfuscation:
    I was not quoting Google; Google was simply reporting what I had written yesterday.
    I didn't have to "pick and choose". It was the first response among a total of 4,480!

    You try to obscure your response that took 21 hours to verify that the perfect tense not only continues past action into the present BUT you failed to acknowledge that the perfect participle means Christ "continues in His glorified body of flesh and bones"!!

    The writer John did NOT reference the PAST action of Christ having appeared in the flesh. He referenced the fact that expectation of His coming continues until He appears again in the flesh when "every eye will see Him" and Caiaphas among those who pierced Him!!!
    Mel
     
    #50 lastday, Aug 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2010
  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You really are a trip, Mel. Lets just call it quits. I have stuff to do.
     
    #51 asterisktom, Aug 19, 2010
  12. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    OK Tom, if you wish to quit...
    At least you drew the attention of 140 views in a single day!
    Mel
     
    #52 lastday, Aug 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2010
  13. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Oh I didn't say calling it quits altogether, though I do take a break from you from time to time. I don't feel a special obligation to go out of my way with you, or to explain more carefully, since in your eye I'm a heretic anyway. All that does is to make me take you less seriously.
     
    #53 asterisktom, Aug 19, 2010
  14. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    No the boasting the Gentiles you say are gotten onto for (the truth is the bible doesn't get onto Gentiles for this but warns them against such behavior) is not teaching that the Davidic Kingdom is fulfilled in the church. The boasting the Gentiles were warned against is believing that they (Gentile believers) are better than God's people among the Jews who had been broken off out of the tree by unbelief. In other words, Paul warned the Gentile believers against believing this: "God has broken them off so He could graff me in. Wow, I must be awefully special." This is the boastful attitude the bible warns against. It is has nothing to do with kingdom doctrine, it has to do with people thinking they are better than someone else.
     
    #54 RAdam, Aug 20, 2010
  15. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Thanks RAdam.

    I agree with your analysis. But the boasting I am referring to applies to
    the view of Replacement theology that ALL ISRAEL refers to the Church!

    ALL ISRAEL must be limited (in this context) to the Two Houses of Judah
    and Ephraim who will be reunited as ONE, because of the Davidic Covenant, when their Messiah "Redeemer" comes to "deliver" them from their enemies forever!!

    I equate this Deliverance with the Covenant with David that will establish
    God's former People in their land forever...King David acting as co-regent.
    Isaiah 60 continues with a picture of Paradise and Zion's eternal blessings!!!
    Mel
     
    #55 lastday, Aug 20, 2010
  16. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Did you say Isaiah 60?

    Wait a second.

    Ah, here it is

    Zion's Bright Beginning & Gracious Growth

    Isaiah 60    ​


    Studying out this rich subject of God's Kingdom revealed in Isaiah, I might say with Solomon "My heart is overflowing with a good theme", Psalm 45:1. But I cannot match his other confession: "My tongue is the pen of a ready writer." On the contrary, I feel dull, stupid, slow-witted when I think of all the wonderful riches in this chapter of Isaiah 60. And distracted by necessary lesser things that seem to crowd in evilly - but you know what I mean.

    Let's take a stab at it. To think about these things can only help us. A good part of seeking those things that are above, Col. 3:1, is to know and reckon to be true those spiritual blessings that we have right now in Christ Jesus: We cannot, at the same time, be down in the dumps and have our heart in the heavenlies.

    One of the first things I noticed about this chapter was the very close correspondence to a small section in Revelation; More exactly, Rev. 21:23 - 27 and Rev. 22: 1 - 2.

    Here is the fascinating thing: those themes in Isaiah 60 that we, from our perspective, view as historical or ongoing, have cross-references in Revelation which we have been taught to see (from our perspective) as still future. But more on this later.

    The Bright Beginning of Zion, verse 1-3

    Arise, shine;
    For your light has come!
    And the glory of the LORD is risen upon you.

    For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
    And deep darkness the people;
    But the LORD will arise over you,
    And His glory will be seen upon you.

    The Gentiles shall come to your light,
    And kings to the brightness of your rising.

    Disclaimer: I am not going to do an exhaustive (exhausting!) exposition of all these verses. Some passages, given our ongoing Zion study, merit especial attention.

    "Arise, shine" is one of several of Isaiah's coupled divine imperatives, going back to 40:1, "Comfort, yes, comfort My people!" Also, "Awake, awake!", twice in chapter 51. "Depart, depart!" in chapter 52. There are others, too, either repetition of a single word or, as in 60:1, two similar imperatives linked together. There is probably a good study here.

    But an unusual aspect of this light of Zion is that it is actually partial. The light is not world-wide. See verse 2. The world is in the darkness of Egypt, but we - at the same time - are in the bright land of Goshen, Exodus 10:21 - 23. We Christians are to shine as lights in a dark world, Matt. 5:14; Phil. 2:15. Christ is the Light of the World. He also rules as King amidst enemies, Psalm 110:2. These two ideas help us to appreciate our first (of seven) cross-references in Revelation, 21:23 - 24:

    The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

    And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

    I realize that most readers of this passage see this as referring to a future and universal brightness, but please consider the fact that this is a cross-reference to - and a further clarification of - Isaiah 60:2 - 3.

    In both of these passages we have light.
    In both of these passages the light is ascribed to the glory of God.
    In both of these passages we have kings coming into this light.
    Because the passage in Isaiah is not future to our time, we should consider seeing Revelation 21 in the same framework.
     
    #56 asterisktom, Aug 20, 2010
  17. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    "All Israel" should be defined by the context. The context is obviously not the entire Israel after the flesh because Paul said they are not all Israel which are of Israel. All Israel also does not contain Gentiles since it is clearly distinguished from them in the context. The only definition of "all Israel" that makes sense contextually is God's people among the Jews. How will they be saved? By a kingdom that is thoroughly worldly and has a king rulely over it that is worldly? Paul said, "and so..." In other words, in the same manner. In the same manner as who? As the Gentiles. How are the Gentiles saved? What is their hope? It is a Davidic Kingdom? No. It is Jesus Christ. The only hope of "all Israel" and the way they'll be saved is by Jesus Christ and the eternal kingdom of God, a kingdom the King Himself proclaimed to be "not of this world."
     
    #57 RAdam, Aug 20, 2010
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Amen! Excellent! :thumbs:
     
    #58 kyredneck, Aug 20, 2010
  19. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    Tom Riggle and RAdam,
    Tom writes:
    What you fail to understand is that Isa.60 and Rev.21 is a Chiasm of two
    periods of time during which mankind will be delivered from darkness via
    the light of the "knowledge of the Lord which will cover the earth as the
    waters cover the sea..for they shall all know the Lord from the least to
    the greatest". This will BEGIN (Note your Heading) during the Millennial
    phase (an exact period of 1000 years) of Zion's Initial Glory!

    A Chiasm is an "inverse parallelism" that anticipates in its opening stage
    what will be totally fulfilled in its eternal state. Paradise will characterize
    the rulership of Christ and King David as His co-regent. In this Beginning
    State of Zion's Glory, the testing and proving of hundreds of millions of
    Gentiles for 1000 years will determine who constitute the sheep nations and who constitute the goat nations to be separated at the end of the age of
    total knowledge of the Lord and required worship of Him by coming annually to worship the Lord at an earthly Jerusalem!!

    Before God can show "mercy on all the natural seed of Abraham...upon all
    the families of the earth", the darkness of the great tribulation must test
    who believes in the coming of Christ in His Flesh and who will prove their
    worthiness of His reward which, BTW, will be special for the Martyrs who
    will "serve God in heaven during the 1000-Year Reign of Christ while those
    Believers who survive to the END will reign with Christ over the earth"!!!
    Rev.7:9-17; Rev.2:25-26.

    RAdam writes:
    Those who will be "delivered" from darkness are both Jews and Gentiles who
    are "kept alive on the Day of Christ's Apocalypse"...a single Day of total destruction of the wicked and of total Deliverance of ALL of Israel and Judah!

    The only reference in which Jesus coupled that DAY of Glory and Power with the opportunity to remain alive and inhabit Earth's Eternal Kingdom...with Christ as its LIGHT spreading forth from the Glory of Zion...is that in Luke 17 where the conditions (of darkness) on earth become like that of Sodom; but it will characterize the cities of all nations. But first Israel must be "purged, purified and refined" with only 1/3 of them left to be imbued with the Spirit
    of the Lord!!

    The Deliverance for Israel in Romans 11:26 awaits the prior humbling of the
    Gentiles as those who have rejected the Lord just as Israel rejected Him.
    Christians are to "cause Israel to be jealous"; but the Gentiles must be
    brought down for their "disobedience...for God has concluded them ALL in
    unbelief that He might have mercy on ALL" who survive and beg for mercy!!!
    Mel
     
    #59 lastday, Aug 20, 2010
  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Your pronouncing that it is a chiasm doesn't make it one. On the other hand, my point that it is a cross-reference, two passages speaking of the same thing, is amply borne out by scripture.
     
    #60 asterisktom, Aug 20, 2010
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