All LS Discussions and Debates

When J. Mac says "Forsake sin", that is EXACTLY what he is speaking of> turning from a sinful lifestyle TO God's path.

Repentance unto eternal life is a forsaking of sinfulness unto God. Sanctification in the Christian walk, is where individual sins are revealed by the Holy Spirit, conviction is brought upon the person, and the person repents of that individual sin.

If you agree with that, we are in essential agreement, at least on this issue.

 

That is the definition of faith.

If my kid is standing on a window sill of a burning building, with me below, and I tell her to jump, and she does, it is because she has faith. If she does not, she does not have faith.

Faith and trust is placing yourself in someone else's hands.

God says "Give up all of that garbage. Trust me. Have faith in me." The two naturally go together.

 

Well, dad,

I just lost my original, long response and I don't know why. I'll get back to you when I can.

skypair

 

I agree with this to a large part. "Repentance and faith" is turning from our world loving, world trusting life, TO God....

"Repentance" is the turning away FROM (sin, hatred of God,all of that, as a WHOLE)...

"Faith" is the turning TO God, and trusting in Him alone..

The problem is people try to put the cart before the horse. You have to turn FROM worldliness, before you can turn TO God. They are in opposite directions.

 

:godisgood: :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

I have answered this question. See-

Did the Apostles Preach Lordship Salvation?


LM

 

Sorry

I don't follow links, and I can read. The apostles preached repentance from sins, and/before faith in Christ. Sounds like L.S. to me.

"We bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God"

Lordship salvation (btw, this was preached to Greeks, not to Jews, FYI)

Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

So much in these verses> Jesus makes it obvious, people must turn FROM their former lifestyle, TO God, IN ORDER that they may receive "forgiveness of sins" and a "place among those who are sanctified by faith in me".

Turning FROM your dark, sinful lifestyle, is a REQUIREMENT BEFORE turning to God...

A five page dissertation saying "it can't be", does not change the plain meaning of the text. The apostles, and Jesus himself, preached Lordship Salvation.

 

Lou,

I went ahead and followed your link. Very unscientific way to approach scriptural studies...

Why don't you do a search on How many times people are told to turn from sins, darkness, Satan, vanity, etc. FOR salvation: there are dozens.

ALSO> Your quoting seems almost deliberately deceptive. From the link>

Yet, you REDEFINE IT, in your own terms, by DELIBERATELY deleting part of the apostles words...Let me show everyone what it is you deleted, from the scripture post....

The REAL definition of the Gospel (Paul's, instead of Lou's):

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures,” (1 Corinthians 15:1, 3-4).

Hmm. THAT'S a LOT different than what Lou wrote in his link. I wonder what it means, "unless you believed in vain"? Obviously the sentence references "being saved". It says you are "being saved" UNLESS you "believed in vain". What DOES that mean...

Thankfully, this is one of the rare instances where scripture actually DEFINES the words FOR you. Skip down just a few verses..

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

WOW! A completely OPPOSITE meaning than what Lou is trying to convey, just by looking at the verse in context, as a whole, rather than chopping it into pieces...Faith that is "in vain" is the OPPOSITE of one that produces works: those that are "being saved" and that do not have a faith that is "in vain", are "being saved"....

It amazes me how Lou and his comrades butcher scripture: I bet you go through a lot of scissors, Lou.

 

That's Lou......

This is why I always ask for what page in the book when he quotes. The guy has a problem with being honest.

 

JA:

I can give you quotes from two of his books, but BEFORE I do: have you read, in their entirety, and of his five major books on LS?

Have you read MacArthur's books on LS? Yes or No?


LM

 

Not working for salvation> you put words in my mouth! Yet there ARE only TWO options....

#1 He is talking about a faith that produces works> a true faith.

#2 He IS talking about works for salvation, which I agree, would not fit scripture, or the Gospel in other places.

#1. The book nowhere states it is ONLY written to believers> you are imposing on the text. It is written to a gathering of PROFESSING Christians, just as we have today, some of which are true believers, and some which are false.

#2 It cannot be from verse 9> notice the "but". Verse 2, is clear that one can have a faith that is "in vain" (meaningless) and which is NOT "saving" the person. In fact, the mere fact that He says "unless YOU" shows that He is in fact NOT exclusively addressing believers.

Paul is speaking of working harder proclaiming the Gospel...YET it was NOT Him working, but the Spirit THROUGH him> which puts an end to the debate of Paul himself working for salvation. Paul's faith was not "in vain" (He was being saved), and therefore it produced works.

Salvation does not need to be worked for> Salvation ALWAYS produces works, though!

Back to the little girl example> if my little girl is standing on a second story window sill, of a burning building, and I tell her to "jump" and I catch her, if she has FAITH, she WILL jump. Her "faith is completed, BY her works. If shes says "o.k." and then does not do it, she has no faith, or a "meaningless" (in vain) faith.

Such a vain faith, according to Paul, cannot save.

 

Just a few comments for all who are exchanging views on this thread:

1) Sanctification/works do NOT confer eternal life. I think all agree with that principle but most are not making the right application. If one is "justified" with God, then sanctification/"works" will come. We don't have to make our definition of works the "litmus test" by which we guage ours or anyone else's salvation. Maybe works won't come immediately -- maybe not that we can detect -- but God knows.

2) The same mistake crept in in the OT in in believing that sanctification conferred eternal life. Remember how the Pharisees answered Jesus? "We are of our father Abraham" and that was it regarding their salvation for many of them. Remember Paul allowed as how the children of Israel were "baptized into Moses" in the Exodus. I mean, these people really thought that by being followers of Abraham and Moses and the prophets saved them.

NOT SO! Any believer knows it isn't by "family" or "the law" that we are saved. It was not that they did the works of Abraham or Moses did that saved -- it was by believing in the "gospel of the kingdom" and "gospel of the sacrifice" that they were saved.

God works the same today regarding JUSTIFICATION of eternal life -- receive the gospel of reconciliation with God and then receive sanctification of a disciple/follower.

skypair

 

Depends on what you mean by "works". There should be an IMMEDIATE "Desire" to follow God, and a desire to turn away from the world. One moment, you are a slave to darkness, sin, etc., the next you are set free, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit> this will cause an immediate change in attitude, with consequential changes in actions. If you were "saved" one day, and then went about the same sinful lifestyle the next day, with no guilt, contrition of heart, desire to change, etc., you were never saved.

NOT SO! The Pharisees thought they were saved because of their bloodline (Abraham is our father!), and they did not have to do anything! What, btw, was Jesus' primary problem with them? Well....

Mat 15:7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
Mat 15:8 "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;

Now why did Jesus say that? He gives the answer to His apostles...

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

The scribes, and Pharisees, ALSO had a "vain" faith in God> they preached, but did not practice....such a meaningless faith cannot save.

As soon as one is saved, they are a disciple of Jesus. I agree He works the same today. So what should we expect from saved men and women today?

Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
Act 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Act 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
Act 4:35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.


Etc. Etc.....

 

Well, we're getting remarkably close despite your pugnacious attitude. :laugh:

Salvation occurs on 3 levels just as the fall did: As in Adam's case, the SOUL dies in sin or is justified in repentance immediately. The SPIRIT is dying in more sin or is being saved in more "works" progressively, daily. Justification saves us in eternity and as you read down through this same chapter, you will see that that was all the Corinthians believed in -- "pie in the sky." By dismissing sanctification during this life, you are basically dismissing being "saved by the life of Christ."

Which is precisely why Lou accuses JM of teaching a "works" salvation. Here's why Lou perceives that: Calvinism has no prior act that a lost person can do to be saved. He is either presumed to be "elect" or presumed to be reprobate still. If, then, he starts behaving as JM thinks he should by reflecting the Lordship of Christ in his life, he is only doing what is MANDATORY in JM's mind for salvation. So now the "elect" might be behaving after JM's model and not the Spirit's, right? He makes himself no different than the Pope in this, dad. And that, again, is why Lou repudiates JM.

It IS optional. It's optional for several reasons. 1) Justification has altogether different considerations than sanctification. In justification, without knowing anything about what Jesus life would be like, I agree to exchange my life for Christ's in death and in resurrection to "new life." In sanctification, we make the individual choices on how we will apply that principle to our lives.

The 60's peace movement was an outgrowth of "born agains" with NO knowledge of God's truth. They just looked at Jesus as the "Prince of Peace" and applied that. These early "hippies" weren't unsaved for that. They were trying to display the Lordship of Christ in their lives (Of course, it went haywire because there really was a political will of lost people to join in.). What would JM have said about those believers?

The important point here is that we make decisions about our sanctification and a) hopefully they are Spirit-based but b) if we are saved, God will use "chastisement" as a means to sanctify us in our wrong decisions.

EXACTLY!! So why does JM not let someone pray a "sinner's prayer" and profess salvation right up front? Why does he demand works of believers but not demand repentance in order to come to salvation? It's because his paradigm is faulty!

Which absolutely SCREAMS for a "sinner's prayer" in place of "it is all of God."

From sin. Do you like sin or would you rather be saved from it? From "wrong place - wrong time." Do you like working a job that God hasn't led you to? Being at a bar when a fight breaks out? From bad marriage. Do you like being married to "Mrs. Wrong?" How about would you like to be able to heal your marriage? Basically, from any area that you take your hands off of and let God direct you in.

Basically, you are agreeing with me. You are saying that they first must have done something "by faith" to be reconciled with God and then they could begin "being saved" by the things Paul preached beyond the gospel. I would say that same thing to JM -- before you embark them on being like Jesus, you better be sure that they are reconciled to God.

Not inevitably produces works -- you just said faith was the "completion of works." Therefore, I would argue that the faith they needed for sanctification must assuredly come from a faith that they needed to be reconciled to God in the first place!

That is so. But turn it around -- are those endeavoring to be sanctified, those doing "works," necessarily saved? No.

skypair