All or Nothing?

Perhaps you should set your "received beliefs" aside long enough for you to analyze the scriptures and understand that God alone is the Creator, therefore, everything that exists come from God...even sin! No, God is not a sinner for He is Holy. But unless you believe there are other Gods who create, then you must believe that all there is comes from the ONE LIVING GOD!

Where did evil come from?
Where did Satan come from?

The answers are in the Bible, God's Holy Word.

 

By the way Ransom, I am not Arminian either! I am Christian, unhyphenated Christian!

 

Yelsew,

although what is left when our carnal spirit is delivered into spiritual death. the laws job is to uncover sin. yet it identifies works of our flesh. namely the struggle that we continually believe we have the power to overcome the fault when it is identified. thats carnal works. God is allowing the law to defeat every fiber of efforts that we possess until we completely submit to the complete sovereignty of God. we cannot overcome the law by our own efforts. the law has killed every effort our will possesses

the "Job" of the law is plainly to kill our old spirit. to deliver it to spiritual death.
what is our spirit once the law has finished its Job..Its dead. we have arrived. into spiritual "death". the death or recognition of the discontinuation of the life of our unrighteous carnal spirit.

consider this, if we call ourselves christians. means that we possess a new spirit. the new and resurrected spirit of Christ.

when we arrive into spiritual death. we're not judged. the law has already judged our unrighteous actions and destroyed them. what happens in death is that we are placed in christ because Christ righteous or eternal life fills death..

lets say death is a pitcher. jesus is "water of life" that that fills this pitcher. when we enter into death. we are immersed into this "water of life".

anyone who receives the seed of God.

lets say our physical flesh is dirt.
we have our old spirit growing inside it.
God puts his seed in our dirt.
the law which is the environment surrounding the seed starts to convict us of carnal works.
until we discover the old carnal spirit has died because of the laws existence.

which now we must become "baptised into the death of Christ".
we're both buried into spiritual death.
our old spirits carcass remains in death.

the seed of God begins to Grow until it bursts forth from Spiritual death. along with our soul.

there we are. our physical body now contains a new plant. christ new spirit and our soul.

but we must have the law destroy our old spirit and be buried with Christ seed. awaiting God Life giving power of Resurrection.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Here is some context:

christians today receive the law (seed). it begins to destroy the works of our carnal flesh. yet if we struggle with its function. we will contest with its methods. we will desire to will control from God and attempt to overcome the fault that the law uncovers by our own strength. neither learning of the power of Jesus Christ, but covering our eyes from the understanding we receive as we observe God overcoming our faults by his power.

We judge Gods methods and sovereignty. We judge his Love for our Life. We judge Jesus and pronounce his inadequacies to overcome the faults that the law uncovers. thus we condemn ourselves.

we pronounce ourselves as gods. or even equal to or more powerful. even wiser than God himself.

that We can save ourselves.

but all we find out is that we delay the process of the function of the law. if christ righteousness fill everything. it will enevitable fill us also. the works of our flesh will be destroyed. we will be delivered unto spiritual death.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

enevitably all men will be delivered by the law unto spiritual death.
enevitably all works of the flesh will be destroyed.
enevitably all men will be placed into Christ.

see yelsew,

the body of Christ is meerly the first batch.

all men are placed into death..ah, I mean Christ



Me2

 

Yelsew,

the "seed" is the spirit of Jesus and the law together.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

israel began the faith that the law of God was good. Jesus Fulfilled that faith. He revealed its reality as part of the new spirit within man

anyone desiring to follow the law of God already has the seed within them. the law begins its work.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

jesus will not upsurp our will.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


our will must follow his.


yet our will is enmity of his until the law destroys the works of our flesh.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I agree yelsew, Jesus Christ is the author of his faith.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

which becomes ours after the law has delivered us unto death..

but the law must do its holy work condemning works of unrighteousness. and then our Lord Jesus Christ will come forth.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mat 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

as we receive the revelation of his presence within us as we become living witnesses to his victory over death.

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Me2

 

Again, let me respond, hopefully briefly. I will omit things we agree on or things that can be summarized more briefly to try to keep it short.

Hos 11:1 is a great passage for illustration, primarily because it is not even a prophecy. So what was Matthew saying? Matthew was finding an illustration of something else. He was not saying “Hosea made a prophecy that is now fulfilled.” I think this passage actually works against you. Peter does a similar thing in Acts 2 where it is clear that Peter is drawing a likeness, not an identity.

As for multiple referents, I don’t see how. When the author refers to something, that is what he is referring to. To enter a multiple referent, you lose control over who gets to determine what the multiple referents are. The control is the authorial intent. You cite Romans 9 where “all Israel is not Israel.” Yet I think you are reading this passage backwards. What is Paul actually saying? He is saying that all ethnic Israel is not saved. He is not saying that some of “true Israel” is not ethnic Israel. This is one of the most misused passages, I think. The second Isreal is a subset of the first Israel. They are both national ethnic Israel. There is not one place in the NT where Israel is conclusively something other than ethnic Israel. Every single occurrence can legitimately sustain the ethnic definition (and should in light of the OT usage). In fact, there are many cases where non ethnic Israel meaning does not even make sense.

As for discussing dispensationalism, I don’t mind discussing it. In my studies of covenant theology, I find very little in the realm of ecclesiology or eschatology that is convincing in the least. Most of it is very easily refuted, IMO, simply by appealing to rigorous exegesis. Other than ecclesiology, eschatology, and a little pneumatology, there is not a lot of difference between dispensationalism and covenantalism. I am willing to discuss hermeneutics. It is one of my favorite subjects. One of my favorite ThM classes was a seminar in hermeneutics in which I wrote a paper on the Single Intent/Authorial Intention hermeneutic. I do think hermeneutics is the heart of the issue between dispensationalists and covenantalists.

In what sense are you speaking of, and why was it impossible for Him not to?</font>[/QUOTE]In the sense that you cannot limit the sufficiency of the sacrifice and in the sense that you have no basis for common grace for sinners apart from something to appease God’s wrath, even if only temporarily. My point in this is to say that God has no basis for dealing with sinners in anything but immediate judgment except for the sacrifice of Christ that satisfies his immediate wrath for a time.

Unless unconditional election includes all people (which we both agree it doesns’t) or unless atonement is less than actual satisfaction, which I don’t believe it is. The difficult passages, to me, are 1 John 2:2 (which I am fairly comfortable with my answer) and 2 Peter 2:1 which I am not comfortable at all and which leads me to be a limited believer in limited atonement. …

I am not convinced the “therefore” is a necessary one, in this argument. I would think you would say it the other way around. What I am saying is that unconditional election does not necessitate limited atonement. Both can be held, but both need not be. The atonement could have another meaning (though I don’t believe it does).

But why?

 

what this doctrine denies is the law of Christ..

which is? the elder shall serve the younger.

or...the righteous shall die for the unrighteous

or...the lamb (atonement) shall die for the goat (wicked).

or...the husband dies for the wife.

or...the male dies for the female.

or...jesus the first born or head dies for his body.

or ...his body dies for Gods creation (his brothers and sisters).


or...vessels of mercy dieing for the vessels of wrath.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

does this mean that Jesus the head dies for his body which dies for his brothers and sisters.

thats God loving man, and man loving man.

if the atonement is not universal. then the sacrifice of the firstfruit (head and body) can be paralleled with molech burning his peoples firstborn for the sake of the sins of their parents. whereas in Gods family...the parent as well as the children dies for each other.

again the elder serving the younger..or by Gods reckonings the righteous vessels whom are first shown mercy are to serve or forgive or love or yes even die (sacrifice) for the unrighteous vessels of wrath.

in this example God shows us by using the example of the vessels of mercy and wrath that eventually both groups enter into christ.

what is the point (limited atonement) if only a few are saved? is it that God doesnt love man completely?.
or that men doesnt love man completely?

you guys cant see this, can you?

limited atonement is "not true" in the extent of its intended scope....

there is more in the atonement of Jesus that meets the eye. look to the law of Christ. the law of the firstborn.


Me2

 

Brian said,
You misunderstood the sense I was using “world.” I accept responsibility for not being clear. Words are not univocal. In the passage you quoted I was using it to refer to the non-elect.</font>[/QUOTE]Brian, There is no "world of the non elect"! There are saved and unsaved only. Jesus’ Atonement covers them ALL!

It is a serious mistake gentiles make in believing a “doctrine of the elect”. For gentiles there are no elect, only saved and unsaved, Believers and Unbelievers. The elect are the Jews, and among them there are believers and unbelievers, too!

 

Me2 said,

What I see in your statement is that man without knowledge is not spiritually dead! That man must agree with God in order to become spiritually dead.

What scriptures do you say support that?

 

Me2 said,

No sir, this simply cannot stand up under scrutiny! If our old "carnal spirit" dies, then why is it that "Born Again Christians" continue to sin? Remember your line of thinking is that when we are baptised our old nature (spirit) dies. Earlier you called this the Carnal spirit so let's see what carnal means.

Those who have been baptized, thus putting their carnal spirit to death, would not; no let me say, "COULD NOT" have any carnal inclinations at all! Yet, human life continues including all of its carnality until the human flesh dies. The born again Christian enters into spiritual warfare against his/her own carnality the minute he/she submits to the Gospel, and that warfare continues throughout natural life.

Baptism does not end the life of the carnal spirit any more than it ends the life of the flesh! No, Me2, you are quite simply wrong!

 

Yelsew2,

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

sound encripted but we know "after the fact" that God created everything first and man must believe to be what he eventually becomes.

what he believes consist of what God says exists.
(knowledge of good and Evil)
therefore man must agree with God what is before he becomes it. cause and effect, as it has been laid out by a greater influence.

God has said that every man (spiritually) dies and then the judgement.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

As an example paul lays out....


Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

just as the law has an end, so does faith in bringing man to the knowledge of reality. of his Environment called heaven or "in Christ"


we see that before the law we were alive spiritually. (our old carnal spirit)

the seed (or law) was given to us.
sin revived.
our old spirit dies. we enter spiritual death.

the law delivers us unto spiritual death.

In Death We are placed into christ by faith. we hold onto this faith until it delivers us unto its designed reality.

wisdom plus understanding equals knowledge or reality..that Christ is indeed "within Us"

God said it. Now I have to experience it to accept it or believe it. I need wisdom as well as proof or understanding. the spirit that God gives us comes with another kind of faith. righteous faith. I accept or agree with this new faith of Christ to be delivered from death. in death I receive a revelation that the power of God has come within me and has resurrected me. that requires faith in his words of wisdom to me. and also requires a revelation or understanding that he also gives me. faith brings my consciousness to an understanding of knowledge of Self. The christ spirit is inside me. not based on what I believe to be true by my old faith of my old spirit. but based on the faith of the new spirit within me. the word of God becoming flesh.

It is the knowledge of the new spirit within me.

It is not me as my old dead self but I now agreeing with the God of reality. It is the knowledge of the Christ spirit within me that I am witnessing to.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

the word becoming flesh. my flesh. Christs Body.

this is the promised image to mankind. To ALL.

As God treats all men equally and non partially.

It will happen to all men. the church is simply the first batch. the first born. Christs Head and Body.

Me2

 

Yelsew2,

Baptism (water) is meerly a symbol of faith within the believer who is waiting for this spiritual action to become a reality towards them.

if water baptism were true to form. we should be duncked under and never come up! water baptism represents death. (remember the flood)

yet I mention baptised "into the death" of Christ

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

this is not symbolic by nature. it is a real spiritual action. we agree that our offense requires justice. namely death. it is God who carries us into spiritual death and resurrects us out. yet in our physical life. the possibility or awareness that this spiritual activity is occurring may not be perceptable. we hold this activity to be occuring by faith.

now your point that resurrected saints sin.

remember we walk by faith and not by sight.

there is now two opposite wills within us.

Christ and ourself.
we are to humble ourselves to his will.

spiritually it is impossible to lay charge of sin to Christ. It is impossible to sin or hold condemnation as we are aware that we now have a new spirit.
yet our will (mind) still walks by sight. to our outside observances we can sin. yet spiritually it is not laid to our new spirits charge.
we should be growing in knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ yet we still live in a world of sin with a physical flesh carcass made of the same substance.

that of death and sin.
paul adresses this issue. opposite mindsets working against themselves in romans 8. if we be raise in christ. there is now no condemnation.

Yelsew, I know that many think that they will not spiritually see death. that is biblically wrong.

it is appointed that all men Spiritually die.
the symbolism of baptism is an outward expression of an inward spiritual reality. we enter into spiritual death and our old man (spirit) remains there as we are resurrected anew in the spirit of Christ.

Me2

 

Are you sure that is what the scripture says?

I don't find the word "spiritually" in this or any other context. Am I supposed to add it as you have done?

Every human who ever lived upon the face of the earth MUST DIE in the flesh, in order for his spirit to be set free. It is ONLY after the death of the flesh that the spirit then faces judgment!

The Faith condition of the human spirit determines whether man's spirit faces two judgments or only one, the judgment of deeds. EVERY man faces judgment of deeds, but Jesus told us, in telling Nicodemus, that believers in HIM are not judged, but that unbelievers are judged already by their unbelief.

 

When did you precede the Law? Do you precede Moses?

The innocence of young childhood is "before the law" for until one can 'hear' (meaning understand) one is innocent of the law.

 

You are wrong! Baptism never ends with one being left under the water. Just as Jesus was raised from the dead, the baptizee is raised from the water to symbolically represent resurrection in Christ!

It was not those outside the ARK that were baptized, but those within the ARK! They are the ones who passed through the flood. All others perished by the flood.

 

HOW CAN THAT BE? You said that our carnal spirit died, and was replaced by the spirit of Christ. Replaced means the old item is removed and a "new" like item is installed in its place. The old is no longer part of man according to your definition that the carnal spirit died!

So what's it going to be Me2? Are you going to stick to the scripture or are you going to keep coming up with "Me2isms"?

 

On this statement we agree, but we do not agree on the principle behind the statement.

What you cannot grasp is that scripture never says that the human spirit, the life of the flesh, dies until the final judgment of Rev 20:14,15 "Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake. Heb 9:27 does say, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Yes, every man who is living in the flesh must die, and that is when the spirit of man is separated from the flesh. The spirit goes to one of two places. The believing spirit to be with the Christ, the unbelieving spirit to await the final judgement. ALL, believers and unbelievers alike will have their deeds judged. But then only the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.

This being cast into the lake of fire is the final judgement of unbelieving man (who is spirit in the image of God). Jesus said (John 3:18) those who believe do not face this final judgement but pass from death into life eternal. But those who lack faith are cast into the lake of fire, the second death. It is this "second death" by which there is spiritual death, for it is the spirits of unbelieving man, the evil spirits, the Father of Lies Satan (who is spirit), who are cast into this lake of fire.

The spirit of man cannot die until it is thrown into the lake of fire, then it cannot escape therefrom! So your theology about human spirit is wrong! You really need to learn to discern truth from fiction!

The faith condition of man is ALL there is that determines one's SALVATION! There is nothing else!

 

Yelsew2,

I get to turn one around on you. .

did Jesus come from life into our world of death?

this could be a phrase denoting his own appointment to exit heaven (life) and enter into our spiritual world (death). and be judged by his father.

this physical world is a reflection of a real spiritual realm. we exist in a spiritual world.
one in which God says is cursed.
Jesus entered into this world. this realm of spiritual death. and he was resurrected from it.

death to human beings as you like to referr to it is simply the disintegration of physical molecules.

I Speak of the spiritual world in which we live in simultaneously. the realm where we exist in a cursed spiritual form. a form which is unacceptable before God. and this form (spirit) must be judged.

It was judged yelsew. on the day that Adam sinned.
we are to die. remain forever in this state seperated from Gods righteousness.

it is judged yelsew. Life as you and I know it is the death of our old spirit and to be resurrected from it into a spiritual enlightenment and awareness. into a higher consciousness above our old carnal understanding. we see and hear with the eyes and ears of Christ now.

Everyone is appointed to spiritually die yelsew.

In my sense I can say that they must die to their own form of present death. and be removed from this world and be resurrected into the opposite world. one of Life.

opposite wills yelsew. only one spirit.
two minds.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

two mind. his and ours. what are his instructions.

be of one mind. same thoughts, same conclusions.

Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Me2

 

Jesus behaved in accordance with all that is common to man except in the area of sin. In the Hebrews 9 passage, verse 27 speaks of the principle that all men must die, then the judgment. Verse 28 speaks of how Jesus complied with that principle in the manner of all men, that is it appointed unto man "once to die". Therefore, there is but one Atonement for the whole of mankind, the "once-for-all" atonement of Jesus Christ.

If you wish to speak only of the spirit realm, you cannot do so by applying scriptures that speak of the physical realm.

Do you agree that man is spirit, "in the image of God" whom Jesus told us "...is spirit, and all who worship must worship in spirit and in truth"?
Do you agree that in order for the spirit of man to be set free, the physical flesh of man must die?
Do you agree with scripture that says that the believing man passes from death (physical death) into life eternal?
Can you agree with the words of Jesus where he said, {John 6:63} 'It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life'.

As for the rest of your comment, Me2, I don't believe your theology is in accordance with scripture.