All ya need is love... All ya need is love.

The age-old problem with advice to "be obedient" is culminated with the question:
Obedient To Who ?

Obedience to the instruction I had as a child from the 2x2 Organization would classify
all of the preaching that I hear on this board as "worldly". Even the names of your
churches were started by man. It's a man's gospel...not the real gospel....etc. etc.

Obedience to God's word to "rest on the Sabbath" would narrow down the possibilities
of pleasing God.....to a certain day worship.

Obedience to any church's doctrines would be an intentional denial of anothers.

We have two commandments today...."Love God, Heart, Soul, Mind, Neighbor as Thyself"...
that one.

Faith in the risen savior brings salvation. Love does not do that. Those who are evil
can love; yet they do not have faith. God is Love.........but yet He is more than Love.

Love never ceaseth....we can't separate that from faith. Love brings us to have faith.


1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

Any time you make the statement "require that people" you invalidate the sacrifice on the cross.

Obedience and love derive from faith; i.e., if you have saving faith, obedience comes from a desire to please the one that you have saving faith towards. And love is also derived in that when we see the love He has towards us, we wish to share that love.

 

Amen to that bro!!!

We who experienced salvation by faith in our Lord Jesus know that we exercised love toward God and to all man because we are constraint by the love of christ. Our motivation is the love of God when we experienced the forgiveness of our sins through faith in Him.

2Cor 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


This is real to us:
Eph 2: 8,9 & 10

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast .

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

So we see that love and obedience do NOT go hand in hand.
Jesus said "If you love me you will obey my commandments".

Glorious reminded us that there are two commandments of the new
covenant to obey. We are all capable of those two. Love AND Love !

NOT love the commandments of man or the authority (man) of the commandments.
NOT the 10 Commandments, not the Mosaic Commandments, not English Law.
NOT some church's interpretation of the scripture.
NOT some church's doctrine.
NOT some church.
NOT some.
NOT.

 

Singer commented:

The age-old problem with advice to "be obedient" is culminated with the question:
Obedient To Who ?

I thought it was obvious? Like......Jesus Christ Himself?

Obedience to the instruction I had as a child from the 2x2 Organization would classify
all of the preaching that I hear on this board as "worldly". Even the names of your
churches were started by man. It's a man's gospel...not the real gospel....etc. etc.

All churches "started by man"?

How about the one man who was God? Now that man started a Church!

Shall you ignore it as well?

Obedience to God's word to "rest on the Sabbath" would narrow down the possibilities
of pleasing God.....to a certain day worship.

Are you saying that we are not to obey the Ten Commandments? Shall we throw out the one that says something about Loving the Lord with ones whole mind, heart and strength?

Obedience to any church's doctrines would be an intentional denial of anothers.

And this is wrong because.....................?

We have two commandments today...."Love God, Heart, Soul, Mind, Neighbor as Thyself"...
that one.

But you just got through dissing the commandment that has you observing the sabbath day!

Faith in the risen savior brings salvation. Love does not do that. Those who are evil
can love; yet they do not have faith. God is Love.........but yet He is more than Love.

Did I not read somewhere that faith without love is someting like "tingling brass"?

Love never ceaseth....we can't separate that from faith. Love brings us to have faith.

Love never ceases applies to God's love for us.

I am not sure that love on the part of you and I or anyone cannot cease by choice and a falling away into sin.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If indeed you "believeth," are you not then to obey He that you "believeth" in?

Even Satan and his minions "believe" which is simply an intellectual knowledge that He exists. And we both know they are condemned to the the everlasting fires of hell.

Therefore, define for us if you will, what "belief" in Jesus Christ means, Singer.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

We have been told on this board that you don't need to be obedient to be saved.
True. Obediance is a result of being saved, not the other way around.

You just have to have faith.
Yup.

Do you need to have love?
Love is a decision, not an emotion. It's part & percel of obedience. In other words, biblical love is a result of faith.

Can you just believe in Jesus and be saved?
Yes. But you cannot live a godly life unless you live that faith.

Would this be a violation of faith alone, i.e. to require that people have to love also?
I heard a popular tv preacher once say "love without faith is impossible, and faith without love is unacceptible". I would agree with that statement. Paul in 1Cor 13 says that if you have all the faith in the world, but that without love, it is worthless. Real faith results in love. It is unavoidable. If your faith has not resulted in love, it's not faith.

 

Grant:

You asked how evil can love. I refer to the scripture:

Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children,
how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things
to them that ask him?

This is also a good reference to expecting answers to prayer. As in the case
of my seeking truth on the tongues issue; went to God in prayer; received an
answer (and an experience ....) and do not see any chance that satan could
have influenced the situation.

As for "God is love...but He is more than love".
I would explain that as "God is Love" and "God is not ONLY love; but more"...!!

 

Welcome back, WP.
It was almost boring without ya.
Almost, I say.
Almost.

 

God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Jesus death on the Cross as the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" atones for the sins of the whole world.

It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment.

Not of works lest any man should boast. Works are tested as if by fire. Good works pass through the fire like Gold, Silver, and precious stones. All other works are consumed as if wood, hay and stubble, but the person is saved as if from a fire.

With all sins atoned for, and works tested and laid before the feet of Jesus, that leaves only the faith condition of the defendent before the Judgment Throne of God. Those who are found with faith in God and especially faith in God's beloved Son, Jesus are saved! all others are cast into the lake of fire along with Satan and his henchmen.

Salvation is by faith alone! NO other attribute including LOVE can save you! So Love alone is not sufficient unto salvation. Faith alone is!

 

Thank you for the welcome, but if I ask some interesting and pointed questions for you to answer, and I receive no replies to them, we won't be discussing much in the future, will we?



God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

The purpose of this post is..............?

And it was addressed for...............who?

Now I am not putting down the quotes you gave per se, but was wondering in reference to what that you post them.

Simply posting scripture accomplishes very little.........

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

The age-old problem with advice to "be obedient" is culminated with the question:
Obedient To Who ?

(WP) I thought it was obvious? Like......Jesus Christ Himself?

That's right....why the question?

Obedience to the instruction I had as a child from the 2x2 Organization would classify
all of the preaching that I hear on this board as "worldly". Even the names of your
churches were started by man. It's a man's gospel...not the real gospel....etc. etc.

(WP) All churches "started by man"?

Yup....that's what they say.
Not too far from the truth though when you think about it a little.

How about the one man who was God? Now that man started a Church!

Shall you ignore it as well?

No, He sure didn't WP. If he had, he'd have given us the name of it wouldn't He?
I'm quite sure He wouldn't have intended for someone else to miraculously appear
about 70 years later to take an adjective, put a capital letter on front of it and then
make claims that it was "The Church" that Jesus started. Faith wasn't born in the
ghettos of Rome ya know. Nothing to ignore that has any biblical standing.

Obedience to God's word to "rest on the Sabbath" would narrow down the possibilities
of pleasing God.....to a certain day worship.
Are you saying that we are not to obey the Ten Commandments? Shall we throw out the
one that says something about Loving the Lord with ones whole mind, heart and strength?

You're not quoting from the Ten Commandments of Exodus Ch 20, WP.
You're quoting from the new covenant of which that is one of the two great
commandants according to Jesus. What do you suppose that does for the
others?

Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,
and with all thy mind.
22:38This is the first and great commandment.
22:39And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Obedience to any church's doctrines would be an intentional denial of anothers.

And this is wrong because.....................?

Not wrong to me because I don't have a church, but you for instance deny conflicting
church doctrines, so you tell ME why it's wrong.

We have two commandments today...."Love God, Heart, Soul, Mind, Neighbor as
Thyself"...
that one.

But you just got through dissing the commandment that has you observing the sabbath
day!

Didn't say I approved of it or accepted it, did I ? My point is.....which commandments
are we expected to obey. You might cover for that by going to your RCC church on a
Saturday night, but do you rest from sundown Fri. to sundown Sat. Being retired;
maybe you do. Easy way out, huh ?

Love never ceaseth....we can't separate that from faith. Love brings us to have faith.

Love never ceases applies to God's love for us.

Isn't love one of the gifts that will not cease? A gift from God ...TO God ??

If indeed you "believeth," are you not then to obey He that you "believeth" in?

Obey what ?

Therefore, define for us if you will, what "belief" in Jesus Christ means, Singer.

There is as much scripture that refers to "believe That" as to "believe in"....
Let's study that for a bit shall we ?

 

Singer did indeed, reply to my questions (I think..........) with:

The age-old problem with advice to "be obedient" is culminated with the question:
Obedient To Who ?

(WP) [font color=red]I thought it was obvious? Like......Jesus Christ Himself?[/font]

On edit: RATS! the color EZCodes don't work in this conference!

That's right....why the question

And that is your only reply?

Tell me, Singer, if you believe in Jesus Christ, or even love Jesus Christ, do you think you would then fall on your knees in obedience to whatever He would want you to do?

And if He established a church with great authority, is it not encumbant upon you to find that church and adhere to it?

If now, whence your love and obedience to Christ, the one you "believe" in?

Obedience to the instruction I had as a child from the 2x2 Organization would classify
all of the preaching that I hear on this board as "worldly". Even the names of your
churches were started by man. It's a man's gospel...not the real gospel....etc. etc.

(WP) [font color=red]All churches "started by man"?[/font]

Yup....that's what they say.
Not too far from the truth though when you think about it a little.

[font color=red]How about the one man who was God? Now that man started a Church!

Shall you ignore it as well?[/font]

No, He sure didn't WP. If he had, he'd have given us the name of it wouldn't He?

Why would he have to go beyond simply to say "my church"? And with the authority given to that church through Peter with the "keys of the kingdom" and the power to "bind and loose," you will continue to ignore that same church of awesome authority?

He even speaks of taking a brother to the church to resolve the issue of his obedience! (Matt. 18:15-18) And once again, note the words of Paul as he speaks of the church in my "tagline" once again.

I'm quite sure He wouldn't have intended for someone else to miraculously appear
about 70 years later to take an adjective, put a capital letter on front of it and then
make claims that it was "The Church" that Jesus started. Faith wasn't born in the
ghettos of Rome ya know. Nothing to ignore that has any biblical standing.

Singer, Christ established a church, Yes or No?

What church was it up until the time there was the first split in the church, about the 9th century, a period of about 800 years?

If there are other churches that existed during that time, please name them for me. And by that, I don't mean such titles as "the church at Corinth" since all we read of is, it belonged to the same mother church, THE CHURCH as a whole, just as the church at Ephasus belonged.

Got the picture?

Obedience to God's word to "rest on the Sabbath" would narrow down the possibilities
of pleasing God.....to a certain day worship.

[font color=red]Are you saying that we are not to obey the Ten Commandments? Shall we throw out the
one that says something about Loving the Lord with ones whole mind, heart and strength?[/font]

You're not quoting from the Ten Commandments of Exodus Ch 20, WP.

I am paraphrasing from it, Singer, and somehow I think you realized that!

You're quoting from the new covenant of which that is one of the two great
commandants according to Jesus. What do you suppose that does for the
others?

Oh joy! What difference does that make, other then to say that the Ten Commandments was obviously carried-over by Christ Himself into the new covenant!

Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,
and with all thy mind.
22:38This is the first and great commandment.
22:39And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



And certainly you think it is possible to believe and even love Christ Our Savior, yet since that is a "stricture" put upon you that you do not like, you can disregard them any way you like?

Singer, say it is not so!

Obedience to any church's doctrines would be an intentional denial of anothers.

[font color=red]And this is wrong because.....................?[/font]

Not wrong to me because I don't have a church, but you for instance deny conflicting
church doctrines, so you tell ME why it's wrong.

Not so fast, Singer, as I need to know how it is that somehow "not having a church" frees you from the obligations of being a believer in Christ that you may not do those things He commands you to do! This is incredible!

We have two commandments today...."Love God, Heart, Soul, Mind, Neighbor as
Thyself"...
that one.

Yet you then disregard the rest of what Christ wants you to do?

And of course, we must do those things, Singer! Yet here you are, agreeing with the most important of the Ten Commandments as Christ passed down from the old covenant!

[font color=red]But you just got through dissing the commandment that has you observing the sabbath day![/font]

Didn't say I approved of it or accepted it, did I ? My point is.....which commandments
are we expected to obey. You might cover for that by going to your RCC church on a
Saturday night, but do you rest from sundown Fri. to sundown Sat. Being retired;
maybe you do. Easy way out, huh ?

Shall I find quotes from the New Testament, the record of the new covenant of Christ, whereas we are to still obey the Ten Commandments?

Love never ceaseth....we can't separate that from faith. Love brings us to have faith.

[font color=red]Love never ceases applies to God's love for us.[/font]

Isn't love one of the gifts that will not cease? A gift from God ...TO God ??

Where do you get this idea from?

[font color=red]If indeed you "believeth," are you not then to obey He that you "believeth" in?[/font]

Obey what ?

One more time - all He commands you to do, including obedience to the church which just may excommunicate you from the community if you don't repent of your sinful ways - per Matthew 18:15-18!

[font color=red]Therefore, define for us if you will, what "belief" in Jesus Christ means, Singer.[/font]

There is as much scripture that refers to "believe That" as to "believe in"....
Let's study that for a bit shall we ?

Yes, let us please do so...................?

I will be standing by.................

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Yep, Singer is his own man, his own priest, bishop and POPE!

Incredible!

And I will be praying for him too!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Christ built a Church (mt 16:18) so surely that one was not started by man.

That's sure sneaky of Jesus to start a church and not ever name it. To hide such
an important feature!!! There are over 900 chapters in my bible and I don't see
where he ever named a church. He said he came to save that which was lost,
but yet you think he'd provide a church and never give it a name....?

Maybe you believe it evolved from some adjective.
Maybe you believe in the Caveman's Ford theory too.
There were wheels and axles before and since the founding of Fords. And,
there existes faith, salvation and righteousness before and since the founding
of Catholicism.

"Whosoever believes in me and lives shall never die".
(I like that church....its name is Whosoever )
Praise the Lord

 

Singer responds to the following statement from Thessalonian:

Christ built a Church (mt 16:18) so surely that one was not started by man.

That's sure sneaky of Jesus to start a church and not ever name it. To hide such
an important feature!!! There are over 900 chapters in my bible and I don't see
where he ever named a church. He said he came to save that which was lost,
but yet you think he'd provide a church and never give it a name....?

Singer...................

Listen to me now:

Christ established a church per Matthew 16:18. He simply said, "...upon this rock I will build my church."

What more do you expect Him to say?

What other church could it be but Christ's church?

Oops, can't do that, for to so elaborate upon the church with what appears to be a adjective that describes that church, thus becomes a name for that church, discredites that church from being the same church Christ founded - Just like you attempt to do when some time later, when the influence of that same church became widespread throughout all of the known civilized world, the adjective "universal" is attached, which from the Greek "Katholos" comes the English word "Catholic," ALARM! ALARM! Not the same church!

Now, while you seem to see Christ fail in some sort of a ceremonial naming of His church, like, perhaps, "...upon this rock I will build my church, which I will precisely name "The Church of Jesus Christ," His failure compounds when He then gives awesome authority to some will-o-the-wisp "something" that is only defined as "church" which is also defined as "community" or "community of believers," or whatever you wish, you simply ignore the ultimate source of what Paul called "The pillar of truth - the Church"........which in Singer's mind, simply does not exist........I guess.........because Christ did not give it a more suitable name?

Sola Scriptura - Oh how wonderful that doctrine is! That one can sit down, read it, and concoct any religious theory he likes, including isolating one from some of what Christ would have us to do.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

[ May 12, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: WPutnam ]