Americans Believe Religion is Losing Clout

[LeBuick]

I could care less about the RCC and they are irrelevant. What does that mean "if the SBC is telling me the truth"? About what? You seem to lack knowledge about the SBC you say you pastored in. The SBC is not a hierarchy like the RCC. Your comparison is apples and refrigerators. And this thread seems to be veering off topic.

In one way it's veering off topic but in another way we see proof why the subject is true (Americans Believe Religion is Losing Clout). We as believers can't find a common ground so religions fight and discredit other religions which brings down the religious community as a whole and gives the secular world plenty of ammunition to use against the Church.

 

[gb93433]

I could care less about the RCC and they are irrelevant. What does that mean "if the SBC is telling me the truth"? About what? You seem to lack knowledge about the SBC you say you pastored in. The SBC is not a hierarchy like the RCC. Your comparison is apples and refrigerators. And this thread seems to be veering off topic.

You have totally missed the point. In addition, I have yet to find where you have answered even one of my questions. Why?

 

[gb93433]

In one way it's veering off topic but in another way we see proof why the subject is true (Americans Believe Religion is Losing Clout). We as believers can't find a common ground so religions fight and discredit other religions which brings down the religious community as a whole and gives the secular world plenty of ammunition to use against the Church.

The ignorance of the Bible by Christians and their erroneous statements gives a lot of fodder for non-believers to feed off of. So many conventions and denominations are spending so much time and money in strategic planning so they can get people in the door rather doing the real job of making disciples.

I tend to think that the problem economy now will be a good thing as their finances go down and people begin to pray and work more.

 

[Revmitchell]

You have totally missed the point. In addition, I have yet to find where you have answered even one of my questions. Why?

Then you have not read any of my posts.

 

[Revmitchell]

In one way it's veering off topic but in another way we see proof why the subject is true (Americans Believe Religion is Losing Clout). We as believers can't find a common ground so religions fight and discredit other religions which brings down the religious community as a whole and gives the secular world plenty of ammunition to use against the Church.

Who are you concerned with discrediting? Mormons? RCC? Are you that ecumenical?

 

[donnA]

Liberal Christians lead the way.

They exhibit little faith and even less action in actually living and voting their supposed Christian values.

liberal believers demonstrate to unbeleivers just what they want to see, that christianity has little value, means not a whole to lot to the individual lifestyle, the unbelievers life appears much like the liberal christian, so why bother.

 

[LeBuick]

Who are you concerned with discrediting? Mormons? RCC? Are you that ecumenical?

I simply stated how the "world" lumps religion or the religious community into one large group. They don't see a difference between the RCC and SBC. So when we say the religious community is loosing clout, some of that has to do with our open disagreement of other's faith leaking out into the secular view..

 

[gb93433]

[FONT=&quot]

Then you have not read any of my posts.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In my old age it is getting harder for me to see and read implied responses so could show me where you answered the following questions? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Post #13 My question would be is; "How many of those who were evangelized and received Christ were discipled?"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Post #16 Why did you not label it as an anti-RCC post?

Post #16 Are you telling us that you lack confidence to face the facts?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Post #19 You never made one comment about being anti-RCC? Why?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Post #19 The website of the people I gave you work in the SBC. If you had done your homework you would know them from "The Mormon Puzzle." Did you ever write them and ask them for the facts as they know them?[/FONT]

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I don't think there is any question that religion has become less important to people in today's society. Mainstream churches are losing members, and people are not finding relevance for religion in their lives. The news is replete with stories detailing this trend.

 

[gb93433]

I don't think there is any question that religion has become less important to people in today's society. Mainstream churches are losing members, and people are not finding relevance for religion in their lives. The news is replete with stories detailing this trend.

Christ has taken a back seat to church growth in most denominations and conventions today. Most of them have church growth experts who are nothing more than gurus telling the pastors how to get people in the church but few if any have ever discipled anyone. They are the "experts" and claim to know how to do ministry as Jesus did.

 

[Revmitchell]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In my old age it is getting harder for me to see and read implied responses so could show me where you answered the following questions? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Post #13 My question would be is; "How many of those who were evangelized and received Christ were discipled?"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Post #16 Why did you not label it as an anti-RCC post?

Post #16 Are you telling us that you lack confidence to face the facts?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Post #19 You never made one comment about being anti-RCC? Why?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Post #19 The website of the people I gave you work in the SBC. If you had done your homework you would know them from "The Mormon Puzzle." Did you ever write them and ask them for the facts as they know them?[/FONT]

You can either accept my answers or move on. I am not playing this game you are attempting to engage in. But your anti-SBC Posts are numerous. Denominations do not have church growth experts telling them anything. Specifically the SBC does not have a hierarchy. Pastors do not follow denominational leadership. Churches are autonomous. But house church movement apologists need to distort a great many things to feel comfortable with their demonization of the church. Pastors and churches are not blind sheep that only follow denominational leaders. They have no say or input into what goes on in SBC churches.

 

[gb93433]

You can either accept my answers or move on. I am not playing this game you are attempting to engage in. But your anti-SBC Posts are numerous. Denominations do not have church growth experts telling them anything. Specifically the SBC does not have a hierarchy. Pastors do not follow denominational leadership. Churches are autonomous. Pastors and churches are not blind sheep that only follow denominational leaders. They have no say or input into what goes on in SBC churches.

Accept what? There is not any substance to your arguments.

You say that you have answered my questions, but as I reread your posts I was unable find any direct answers to those I posted earlier. Yet again you gave a response of wasted words and no substance. Is it impossible to give a direct answer to a direct question?

Game? Who brought it up about being anti-SBC? In the same sentence was also a denomination mentioned yet you failed to address that with equal vigor. Why?

All I can say is that it is quite obvious from your posts that you have not had much involvement above the local church level in the SBC. I guess that I am quite ignorant compared to you in that I graduated from an SBC seminary and went on to replant one church, plant three, and pastor one.

In response to your assertion about pastors and churches. There is a reason why people are leaving the SBC. Let me asure you that of those I know it is not because they are liberal and the pastors are bad. It is because they are tired of the politics and what they see as doctrinal conservatism combined with inconsistent liberal practices about what scripture teaches by leaders.

It was just a few years ago that Henry Blackaby spoke about that. In 1974 Peter Lord spoke about the same thing.

 

[Revmitchell]

Accept what? There is not any substance to your arguments.

Actually your whole case is based on anecdotal examples of a few. That is which lacks any substance and my point form the beginning.

You say that you have answered my questions, but as I reread your posts I was unable find any direct answers to those I posted earlier. Yet again you gave a response of wasted words and no substance. Is it impossible to give a direct answer to a direct question?

Then you have a comprehension problem.

Game? Who brought it up about being anti-SBC? In the same sentence was also a denomination mentioned yet you failed to address that with equal vigor. Why?

The RCC and the SBC should not even be in the same sentence. One is a legitimate Bible believing cooperative the other is lost. If you will go back you will see my direct answer was the RCC is irrelevant.

All I can say is that it is quite obvious from your posts that you have not had much involvement above the local church level in the SBC. I guess that I am quite ignorant compared to you in that I graduated from an SBC seminary and went on to replant one church, plant three, and pastor one.

I know. You are always giving us your SBC resume all the while bashing it. Neither is impressive and I do not need to spout mine to impress anyone. That is the weakest of arguments.

In response to your assertion about pastors and churches. There is a reason why people are leaving the SBC. Let me asure you that of those I know it is not because they are liberal and the pastors are bad. It is because they are tired of the politics and what they see as doctrinal conservatism combined with inconsistent liberal practices about what scripture teaches by leaders.

I let your false claim, that the SBC is a denomination, go because it is often used poorly with no real intent. But it appears you just do not know better. The SBC is not a denomination. It is a cooperative of independent Baptist churches. With all your resume touting and vast SBC experience one would think you would know better. If someone leaves any church in the cooperative they are merely leaving that church.

 

[gb93433]

The RCC and the SBC should not even be in the same sentence. One is a legitimate Bible believing cooperative the other is lost. If you will go back you will see my direct answer was the RCC is irrelevant.

It was irrelevant because you chose to side with your emotions and not deal with the facts. While you may not agree with some of the RCC doctrine, however in your arrogance do not be so quick to judge and misrepresent both the RCC and SBC. Your knowledge of both the RCC, SBC and Bible is seriously lacking. My mother came to Christ through me and she is still in the RCC and studies the Bible and has learned to do evangelism. The Bible studies she shows me are quite good.

Apparently you are unaware that in about 1975 the RCC formed a scholarship committee. You are also unaware that a number of the scholars who have been writing books for them are protestants who most likely have written books you have read. Apparently you are also unaware that some of the SBC seminaries use their grammar reference books.

There is a difference between proclamation and practice. Peter Lord in 1974 proclaimed the SBC as quite close to paganism. Apparently you are unaware of the fact that there are believers and non-believers who are members in both the SBC and RCC. In fact the first person in my life to ever share the gospel of Jesus Christ with me was a college roommate who was a Christian and a Catholic. I had friends in high school who were christians from several denominations. Not one of them ever shared the gospel with me. One of them was the son of a Baptist pastor and had never shared his faith with me. He is now a graduate of DBU.

I know. You are always giving us your SBC resume all the while bashing it. Neither is impressive and I do not need to spout mine to impress anyone. That is the weakest of arguments.

It amazes me that you continue to defend the SBC and participate in their image building and wrongdoing. It is biblical to confess your sin and unbiblical to cover it up. Apparently you like to be a part of their image building and coverups. There is not one organzation or person which is always perfect, so why do you so vigorously defend the SBC? Did you forget that the Bible teaches how God blesses the humble and opposes the proud.

It was nice to see how the last president of the SBC was a real Christian man and how he handled wrongs and made an attempt to make things right. Some of the former leaders have tried to cover up the mistakes and wrongs of the SBC instead of being humble. If the practice of the president would continue we would see a far better SBC.

I let your false claim, that the SBC is a denomination, go because it is often used poorly with no real intent. But it appears you just do not know better. The SBC is not a denomination. It is a cooperative of independent Baptist churches. With all your resume touting and vast SBC experience one would think you would know better. If someone leaves any church in the cooperative they are merely leaving that church.

You are wrong. You are ignorant of when the SBC performs as a denomination and when it does not. Doing some study on SBC history would help you a lot to better understand the SBC.

Surely do not believe me but perhaps you might believe a Soutern Baptist leader at http://www.ccwonline.org/sbc.html

 

[gb93433]

I simply stated how the "world" lumps religion or the religious community into one large group. They don't see a difference between the RCC and SBC. So when we say the religious community is loosing clout, some of that has to do with our open disagreement of other's faith leaking out into the secular view..

You are right. A former student of mine from Japan is visiting my family over the Christmas hoildays and what he says is much more alarming then what we hear from many Americans. Years ago a man said to me, "The fundamentalists and liberals lie in the same bed. Just on opposite ends."

 

[Revmitchell]

It was irrelevant because you chose to side with your emotions and not deal with the facts. While you may not agree with some of the RCC doctrine, however in your arrogance do not be so quick to judge and misrepresent both the RCC and SBC. Your knowledge of both the RCC, SBC and Bible is seriously lacking. My mother came to Christ through me and she is still in the RCC and studies the Bible and has learned to do evangelism. The Bible studies she shows me are quite good.

Apparently you are unaware that in about 1975 the RCC formed a scholarship committee. You are also unaware that a number of the scholars who have been writing books for them are protestants who most likely have written books you have read. Apparently you are also unaware that some of the SBC seminaries use their grammar reference books.

There is a difference between proclamation and practice. Peter Lord in 1974 proclaimed the SBC as quite close to paganism. Apparently you are unaware of the fact that there are believers and non-believers who are members in both the SBC and RCC. In fact the first person in my life to ever share the gospel of Jesus Christ with me was a college roommate who was a Christian and a Catholic. I had friends in high school who were christians from several denominations. Not one of them ever shared the gospel with me. One of them was the son of a Baptist pastor and had never shared his faith with me. He is now a graduate of DBU.

It amazes me that you continue to defend the SBC and participate in their image building and wrongdoing. It is biblical to confess your sin and unbiblical to cover it up. Apparently you like to be a part of their image building and coverups. There is not one organzation or person which is always perfect, so why do you so vigorously defend the SBC? Did you forget that the Bible teaches how God blesses the humble and opposes the proud.

It was nice to see how the last president of the SBC was a real Christian man and how he handled wrongs and made an attempt to make things right. Some of the former leaders have tried to cover up the mistakes and wrongs of the SBC instead of being humble. If the practice of the president would continue we would see a far better SBC.

You are wrong. You are ignorant of when the SBC performs as a denomination and when it does not. Doing some study on SBC history would help you a lot to better understand the SBC.

Surely do not believe me but perhaps you might believe a Soutern Baptist leader at http://www.ccwonline.org/sbc.html

You do not have a clue. But that is common with the house church movement which was born out of rebellion and no scripture.

 

[gb93433]

You do not have a clue. But that is common with the house church movement which was born out of rebellion and no scripture.

What does your ignorance of how the SBC operates have to do with your response?

 

[gb93433]

But that is common with the house church movement which was born out of rebellion and no scripture.

Are you referring to the underground churches which Paul planted, during communism, and in China today?

 

[Revmitchell]

Are you referring to the underground churches which Paul planted, during communism, and in China today?

Geography has little to do with the house church movement.

 

[Revmitchell]

What does your ignorance of how the SBC operates have to do with your response?

You have provided no evidence of the SBC being or acting in any form like a denomination or any false accusation of my ignorance on this. If you want to continue this discussion you will need to start another thread or pm me. This is off topic.