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An Answer To Alcoholic Beverages

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by His Blood Spoke My Name, Jun 19, 2007.

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  1. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Let me get this right, HBSMN, are you saying that someone who drinks too much grape juice not qualified to be a deacon?
     
    #21 NaasPreacher (C4K), Jun 20, 2007
  2. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    **Insult deleted**
     
    #22 Magnetic Poles, Jun 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2007
  3. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    This is definitely his soap box....or would it be "juice" box?

    We all have soap boxes...but LET IT REST.
     
    #23 dan e., Jun 20, 2007
  4. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    interesting question...hadn't thought of that one.
     
    #24 rbell, Jun 20, 2007
  5. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Do not be drunk with grape juice, wherein is excess.... :)
     
    #25 Dale-c, Jun 20, 2007
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    HBSMN:
    If fermentation was a destructive law God put into operation, then what did they drink at passover? And why would they drink something that was the symbol of death and sin? It could not have been unfermented juice. The grapes would have been harvested months before. This is just common sense. Fermentation is a natural occurance. I have even let peaches get too ripe and when eaten tasted of alcohol. And they feremented sitting in my air conditioned kitchen. Was I sinning by eating them? ( I didn't eat much, they tasted nasty)

    I am NOT advocating the drinking of alcohol, far from it. I have seen the devastation it can cause in my own family. But, to say that grapes do not ferment after sitting for months is denying the truth of the laws of nature which God decreed.

    If common sense were used, one would have to concede that in NT times, people drank wine as a replacement for fresh water or it was added to water to purify it from dangerous bacteria. In those days water fit for drinking was not plentiful. I think this may have been one of the reasons Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach.

    Fast forward to 2007 and we in America do not need to drink alcohol for any reason. Our water is fresh. (we hope :saint: ) But, the point I'm trying to make is that wine in ancient times was not just a beverage used for intoxication, but that it had a purpose, designed by God and NOT to be abused. It's purpose was never to drank to excess, but to be used for what God intended. This same argument can be used for any of God's creations. Food is good, we can't live without it, but it can be abused.

    I see no point in drinking alcohol in our day and age other than to get a "buzz". That is it's only purpose now. And I don't think we should be doing that. But, in ancient times it was a neccessity for purifying water at the very least. I'm sure it was used on wounds as well as an antiseptic. Common sense tells us this.

    The Bible clearly teaches against drunkeness, but wine used in those days had health benefits, as I have tried to explain. I think it's important to look at this issue with common sense instead of emotion and realize that what was done 2000/4000 years ago was for different reasons than it is for today. But, to say that wine wasn't wine, it was unfermented juice is to just deny the clear reading of the scriptures and common sense.

    Disclaimer: IMHO :)
     
    #26 Amy.G, Jun 20, 2007
  7. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Amy, moslty I agree with your post but I will add something:
    I saw a book once that contrasted the US with France. It was shown that the average health is better there than here, even though they tend to eat worse.
    They also tend to drink a lot more wine.

    Wine taken properly is still healthy and and God can be glorified when a Christian drinks it.


    Whatsoever you eat or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the Glory of God! :)

    So, no more living in fear of eating or drinking,
    Eat your ice cream to the glory of God. Drink your lemonade to the glory of God. Drink your wine to the Glory of God.
    Smoke your pipe to the glory of God.
     
    #27 Dale-c, Jun 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2007
  8. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    That must be it. Pride is an awful thing to shove around.
     
    #28 Bro. Curtis, Jun 20, 2007
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I'm sure. How can one serve when they are running to the bathroom every 3 seconds :D
     
    #29 webdog, Jun 20, 2007
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Dale, I agree with you. :)
     
    #30 Amy.G, Jun 20, 2007
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    And I also agree that it is not necessary to live a long life these days.

    My grandfather is 96 and has never drank any form of wine.

    I on the other had do not really like it but my wife and I have discussed starting for certain health benefits.

    Neither of us like the taste of what we have tried but feel it will benefit our health.
    Hopefully we will learn to like it like coffee :)
     
    #31 Dale-c, Jun 20, 2007
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Oh, there ain't nuthin' as good as coffee!!

    I'm from the south you know! :laugh:
     
    #32 Amy.G, Jun 20, 2007
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I like coffee, but I don't drink it much. I *love* tea. I'd take a good cup of very strong tea with milk and stevia (natural sweetener) over just about any other beverage. It has to be goat milk or whole milk, though, or else I'll wine about it. (Just had to add that to keep the post on topic.)
     
    #33 npetreley, Jun 20, 2007
  14. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I agree with you Amy!!!

    As far as wine is concerned, I won't be drinking a glass a day as a "vitamin supplement" or just for dinner. While I won't say drinking alcohol is a sin, that doesn't mean I'm going to drink it regularly either. This a more moderate position.

    As for wine not tasting good, you simply need a better brand of wine. There are wines out there that taste very nice. Still, even the idea of drinking a glass of that leaves me dry. (okay, bad pun, I admit it :D )
     
    #34 menageriekeeper, Jun 20, 2007
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I like my tea cold with sugar and lemon. Southern to the core! Sweet tea, you know.
    Ok, back on topic. Stop wining NP!
     
    #35 Amy.G, Jun 20, 2007
  16. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name New Member

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    Let us first consider some of the problems that Paul was try-
    ing to correct in this epistle. The epistle was written to Titus who
    was ordained the first Bishop of the Church of the Cretians. At
    Crete one of the big problems they had was sensuous over indul-
    gence and gluttony. In Titus 1:12, the Apostle Paul wrote:


    One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said,​
    The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.​
    (Gluttonous)​

    Dr. William Patton explains the reasons for the Apostle Paul’s
    instructions, regarding self-control in Titus Chapter 2:

    …these, before their conversion, had been idolaters, and​
    who, in the days of their ignorance, had given themselves​
    up to voluptuous practices (That is, sensuous pleasure​
    seeking acts)​

    He goes on to quote Polybius in his 6th book (as quoted by
    Nott) as saying:

    Among the Romans, the women were forbidden to drink​
    (intoxicating) wine; they drink, however, what is called​
    passum, made from raisins, which drink very much​
    resembles AEgosthenian and Cretan gleukos (sweet​
    wine); which men use for allaying excessive thirst.​

    He then quotes the Rev. W.H. Rule when speaking of this
    unfermented wine, as saying:

    A larger quantity might be taken, and the eastern sot​
    could enjoy himself longer over the cup, than if he were​
    filled up with fermented wine, without being baffled by​
    the senselessness of profound inebriation.​

    Dr. Patton sums up the passage by stating:

    These voluptuous habits denoted such devotion to the​
    Enjoyment of luxury and pleasure, such an indulgence in​
    sensual gratification, as unfitted these women for a sta-​
    tion in the Christian Church, and for the proper discharge​
    of the domestic duties particularly noticed in the text.​

    We can thus see that it is perfectly reasonable that Paul was
    warning against sensual indulgence with this sweet tasting mix-
    ture. This would be essentially the same as warning against
    gluttony. For those not fully convinced, there is even more infor-
    mation if one looks closely enough, to fully vindicate this idea.

    In the preceding verse (Titus 2:2) it reads:

    That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in​
    faith, in charity, in patience.​

    The word translated “sober” is nephalios, which means
    to be free from the influence of intoxication, especially wine.
    Concerning the meaning of this word, Robinson’s Lexicon of the
    New Testament states:

    sober, temperate, abstinet, espec. in respect to wine.​
    ​
    This word is used metaphorically in the New Testament; i.e., to
    be sober minded and circumspect, but here the literal also applies.
    Even when this word is used in its metaphorical sense, one is still
    commanded to abstain from alcohol in order to fulfill the metaphori-
    cal command. That is, to be sober minded, watchful and circumspect.
    This removes all excuses from those who would down the meaning of
    This word strictly to its metaphorical sense, so that they may be free to indulge in drink. In this verse the inspired Apostle includes the words “grave” and “temperate.” The former means to be worthy of respect and the latter means to be self controlled. Thus the verse could read:

    Teach the older men to abstain from intoxicants (in order​
    to be sober minded, watchful and circumspect), to be worthy of respect, self controlled, sound in faith, in love, in endurance.​

    Verse 3 would then continue:

    Teach the older women to do the same, that they may also be worthy of respect, not slanderers, not to be slaves to much wine (sweet wine), but to teach that what is good.

    Robert Young, one of the great Bible scholars of the past,
    gives the literal translation for verses two and three of Titus chapter 2, with the most ablest and concise explanation:

    That, lit. aged (or elders, elderly) men to be not drinking, reverent, sound minded, healthy in the faith, the love, the endurance.

    Aged, or elderly women or elderesses..in staidness as is​
    proper to priestesses, not devils (lit. ‘thrusters through,’)​
    not having been in bondage to much wine, teachers of​
    good (persons or things).​

    Here we can see that it is obviously clear that the “much wine” mentioned here could not be alcoholic. Because Paul would not command total abstinence as the passage clearly shows, and in the next breath make allowance for so-called moderate indulgence, this would not make sense.
    Exerpt from 'Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" by Leighton G. Campbell.
     
    #36 His Blood Spoke My Name, Jun 20, 2007
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I don't like wine or any other alcohol, but I do love welch's grape juice. It doesn't taste like it used to though. I remember when it came in glass bottles and tasted far better than what they sell now.
    Oops. I'm off topic again. :)
     
    #37 Amy.G, Jun 20, 2007
  18. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name New Member

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    Amy, it has already been shown in previous threads that the preservation of unfermented wine was possible even before Jesus' day.

    Just because the peaches soured in your kitchen does not mean that fruits were not kept fresh by others in Bible times.

    Herod's fortress in Masada was found to have fruits, vegetables, wine and oil, all fresh and nearly 100 years old. This was recorded by the historian Flavius Josephus in the 1st century AD.
     
    #38 His Blood Spoke My Name, Jun 20, 2007
  19. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I agree re: better brand. But stick to red wine, if you can. You don't get the same amount of benefit from white. Red wine is made with the skin, seeds and stems, which is what makes it red. (No, white wine is not white because it's made from green grapes - it lacks the skins, so it doesn't get the red pigment from the skins.)
     
    #39 npetreley, Jun 20, 2007
  20. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    I never liked wine. I always preferred a Bavarian Brew. Spaten & Becks come to mind. There's also an oatmeal stout made by Samuel Smith, in Britain. These beers prevent drunkeness by being so filling you can't have but one.

    But like I said before, I haven't had a drink in years, and it may not be a sin for me to have one beer, but I'm not going to allow myself to be anywhere near the stuff.

    Far be it from me to hold that over anyone else's head.
     
    #40 Bro. Curtis, Jun 20, 2007
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