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Animals

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by amixedupmom, Jun 21, 2004.

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  1. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    Do animals have souls?

    I've gotten in this debate with my Father in law and now with my pastor.

    I think that they do considering they can hurt, be happy, and communicate with thier own kind.

    What do you think? Is there any scripture to back up either way?
     
    #1 amixedupmom, Jun 21, 2004
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Souls? No. Spirits, maybe, but not souls. The Soul was given to humankind.
    Those may be indications of a spirit, but not a soul. Two different things.

    Also, they're human traits that we place on our animals. For example, would you feel the same in regards to people who have pet tarantulas, crabs, millipedes, scorpions, and pet Madagascar cockroackes? Or pet snakes and fish?
     
    #2 Johnv, Jun 21, 2004
  3. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    Of course, even though they scare me they are all of God's creatures put here for a purpose. As long as they are NOT in my kitchen, I have no problem with them. If they enter my home, Look out :D

    It's just Animals seem to be as imprefect as we are, and i'm wondering why that is. My cat senses when i'm hurting, or sick. They know when something hurts. Is my proof that they haved some form of conscience.

    My pastor says they don't have a soul for God did not breathe in their nostrils. But, he didn't do that for woman. My pastor argues he did because woman was made from man. All this has done is confuse me further.
     
    #3 amixedupmom, Jun 21, 2004
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    There is a verse in the OT that mentions animals having a soul, though I always understand that to mean emotions from that context. I am sorry that I cannot recall where it is though I read it recently (and it takes too long to look up all the verses with "soul" in them).

    Is 11 talks about the restored heaven and earth and mentions animals. The wicked have been slain (v. 4). Rev 21 tells us that a new heaven and a new earth will merge, showing us the restored Paradise of the Garden of Eden (heaven). I think this is what Is 11 is talking about, so it seems there will be animals there. Since there were animals before sin entered the Garden, I don't see why there won't be animals afterwards. Sin caused the fall of all creation but creation will be restored (Romans 8.20-22).

    All this to say that I think God loves the creatures he made and it seems from Is 11 that they will be in the Kingdom. I don't think they have souls/spirits in the way we do since we are made in the image of God and they aren't, but I think there is a mind and personality that makes them more special than plants or rocks.
     
    #4 Marcia, Jun 21, 2004
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Animals have life within them, but not the image of God.
     
    #5 Daniel David, Jun 21, 2004
  6. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    Thank you. You both have just reaffirmed my own take on this.

    Animals are not the image of God as we are, but they do have a conscience. I just don't think we can understand that. The human mind at times is limited and one track. Towards human.

    It's the same for thinking that we are the middle of everything. This is not true if it were the universe wouldn't be a billionth of our size. It would be half but, that is another subject entirely [​IMG]
     
    #6 amixedupmom, Jun 21, 2004
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Lea, I think animals have a consciousness but not a conscience. A conscience is given to discern right from wrong and to be convicted of wrong (Romans 2.15). I do not think animals have a sense of moral right and wrong and they are not held accountable for that.
     
    #7 Marcia, Jun 21, 2004
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Actually Lea, if the universe is infinite then every place within it is in the middle of it.

    HankD
     
    #8 HankD, Jun 21, 2004
  9. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    That I know. The point I was trying to get the answer too was if they were for the lack of a better word alive. can they feel? Do thier hearts break when someone they care about leaves. and that is what you affirmed they have the consienceness to do that but they are not on the same plane we are
     
    #9 amixedupmom, Jun 21, 2004
  10. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    [​IMG] i knew i should have used a mountain instead of the universe. it's just we are so small to be the center of everything. was my point [​IMG]
     
    #10 amixedupmom, Jun 21, 2004
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    In the Hebrew Bible the word nephesh (often translated as soul) is used of animals as well as man.

    "Soul" Generally the seat of self awareness.

    Animals have a "soul" and have self-awareness though I don't think (don't know for certain) that ruach-spirit (except for one place perhaps) is used of animals. Not being in the image of God they have no spiritual element or God-awareness and therefore no capacity for intellect, reason, logic, emotion.

    Sometimes in the media animals are presented as having emotion but it is IMO always "instinct" wrongly presented.

    Hank
     
    #11 HankD, Jun 22, 2004
  12. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    Hank I would have to disagree there. I think that they do have emotion. Some people decide that they cannot have asoul or emotion or they could not eat meat. I can understand this but, it's not the fact. I've seen animals cry. Not thier eyes water.

    I watched a dog who's best friend was a cat, when the cat got run over, the following week he plunged himself in front of a car. This was a friendship between them that lasted MANY years almost a decade. So that there is proof enough **in my eyes** that they have souls and do have emotions.

    They cannot be saved, for they have no savior except maybe Noah [​IMG] . I agree with the fact they are not us, but I do agree that they have something inside them.

    They can learn, they can feel down, and they can very well scream. There has to be something there that allows them to do that. Bestowed by God.

    [​IMG]
     
    #12 amixedupmom, Jun 22, 2004
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps Lea, but I think it is our attachment to our pets that distorts our own reasonings.

    Although we had two litter mate cats that lived to be almost 20 years. When one of them died the other walked around for weeks calling for her sister and eventually died herself.
    Everyone said it was from a broken heart.

    HankD
     
    #13 HankD, Jun 22, 2004
  14. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    That's what I think. The problem with topic's like this is simply we are not going to know until we get to heaven. So It's on my list to ask :D
     
    #14 amixedupmom, Jun 22, 2004
  15. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

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    A friend of mine just wrote this to me about her cat, Jaq:

    "Jaq is always so sweet when I am not feeling well. She seem to know when I need a little extra sweetness. She was stuck to me like glue yesterday and just now jumped up into my arms and nuzzled. My husband says when she is in my arms, it looks like she is hugging me. It feels that way, too. She puts her paws on my shoulder and sort of melts into me, like a baby does. From that position, she can turn her head to kiss or look around. If anyone else holds her like that, she digs her claws in and tries to climb over his or her back."
     
    #15 Debby in Philly, Jun 22, 2004
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Emotion is not indicative of having a soul. Feelings are part of the mental response.


    I eat meat all the time, and I have both emotion and a soul. My dog and cat both eat meat. They have emotions, but not a soul. A turtle doesn't eat meat. But like the dog and cat, he has emotions, but not a soul.

    As I said earlier, they may have a spirit, but not a soul.

    None of these are indicative of a soul. They're indicative of being living creatures.

    It's not our emotions that define our souls. If that were the case, we'd all be in trouble. In fact, following our feelings often gets us into trouble. Ask anyone whose ever had an affair.
     
    #16 Johnv, Jun 22, 2004
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    John, I believe our biggest difference is in the defintion of terms.

    HankD
     
    #17 HankD, Jun 23, 2004
  18. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    Ok John a simple question well two

    What is a soul?

    What is a spirit?
     
    #18 amixedupmom, Jun 23, 2004
  19. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."
    (Romans 8:21-22 KJV)

    http://www.creatures.com/Scripture.html
     
    #19 LadyEagle, Jun 23, 2004
  20. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    Oh Lady Eagle there is no appriciate I can ever convey to you for this. I can only say thank you and God Bless you.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #20 amixedupmom, Jun 23, 2004
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