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Another Thread On Translation

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Rippon, Feb 27, 2018.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Jerome, just what is your point with your out-of-context quotes of mine?

    Do you have any questions?
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that rendering was preferred as done by the more dynamic translations for this passage, but would still say that overall, and for the majority of passages, the more formal translation give to us what was closer to the intent of the scriptures.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see Colossians 4:16 has been offered as indicating less than formal equivalence is required.

    NASB 16 When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea.

    And this was lacking when compared to this loose translation:

    NIV 16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

    1) NIV mistranslates "when (whenever)" as "after." Totally unnecessary, since "when this letter has been read to you" means exactly the same thing!

    2) NIV mistranslates read among you as "read to you." Again sacrificing accuracy for no gain

    3) The NASB fills the ellipsis with "my letter" rather than "the letter," again avoiding the confusion that someone else might have written it.

    Once again, no verse needs to be translated loosely.
     
  4. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    The NASB is "looser" from the Greek than the ESV, NIV and CSB. You contradict yourself. The NASB used dynamic principles so the verse made sense. More so than the NIV. The lit is not a "my letter" but "the letter". The NIV left the ambiguity that is found in the Greek. The NASB interprets for us who "the" is. The NASB ....more so the NLT....show is functional principles are at time very helpful.

    *The NASB had to read the "textual clues" and context to determine the true meaning. The NASB did not go word for word here....maintinaing the most straight forward reading. It is dynamic.


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    #64 McCree79, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  5. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Correction to my post. "The letter". Left the "T"off

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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    First you made the case "the" could be translated as "my"without a footnote, then claim the translation is not literal.
    Then while contradicting yourself, you charge me with your offense.
    Even if you are correct in your claim (now not before) that "my" is not a grammatical, historical; translation choice, still the NIV made twice as many loose choices. :)
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Ever read "Young's Literal Translation" closely? How easily-understood is it?
     
  8. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    When did I contradict my self? Didn't happen. You said the "looser" rendering did not need to happen. Yet you say the NASB handled it better....which is the looser reading of "καὶ τὴν ἐκ Λαοδικείας ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀναγνῶτε"

    What is the literal transaltion of the article? It is "the". The NASB does not render it so....and mostly like is correct in assuming such from the contextual clues. NASB used a more dynamic method than the NIV here. Providing a more "accurate", yet dynamic reading. If we stayed as literal as possible is would read something like , "and the from Laodicea, and so that you read a loud". The literal is ambiguous.

    Our transaltion carried the subject down
    (ἐπιστολή). NIV keep the Greek (lit "the"). NASB changed article to "my". Or the article could possible be "that" as literal type reading . So we would have that letter, or the letter.....my letter is more dynamic than the other two possibilities
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    #68 McCree79, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, it is hard to understand. But, OTOH, I do not have too much difficulty with the NASB, LEB, or NKJV. As I said, these obviously have some poor translation choices, but the loose translations have more.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why did you simply repeat what you said before and did not addess the fact the NIV is "looser" than the NASB even in the verse you chose.

    Here is what you wrote:


    Thus you indicated above that "my" was a "literal" translation choice that did not need a footnote to indicate it was a dynamic choice outside the historical grammatical meaning of the word.


     
  11. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Why is it "simple" to see the article as a pronoun? What is the usually meaning of the article?

    And I never said "my" was a "literal" choice. Neither did Mounce. Mounce does not believe in "literal". I said it was probably correct choice. I repeated myself because you have yet to understand that the NASB employeed dynamic principles to transalte this verse. A "literal" rendering would fail miserably. The NASB did not get it right because it is "literal". The NIV was "literal" when it translated "τὴν". The literal is ambiguous. It could be a letter from the church or from Paul. Contextual evidence seems to support Paul, but the NIV left that decision up to the reader. Something you have supported in the past. The NASB decides for the reader. It interprets intent for the reader. It is more dynamic than the NIV here.

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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Still you did not address the fact the NIV is "looser" than the NIV in the very verse you chose!!

    Next, filling an elipsis with the indicated word is consistent with how formal equivalence is done. Thus both "my letter" and "the letter" can be found in formal equivalence versions.

    And to repeat, even if you are right and "my letter" is less formal than "the letter" the NIV translation is still the looser of the two renderings of Colossians 4:16.

    Now lets look at some verses I would choose:

    1 Corinthians 16:13 "be courageous" should read, "act like men."

    Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read, "children of wrath."

    The loose translations are full of examples of adding words, omitting words and changing the meaning of words. Not good.
     
    #72 Van, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The NASB footnoted "my" rather than the literal "the" and filling in ellipses with the indicated word falls withing the word meaning for word meaning translation philosophy as can be seen throughout the LEB and NASB.

    Not footnoting alterations is the sine qua non of loose translations.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The best translations are those that are formal in approach , but also are able and willing to become more "looser" when the context actually requires it in order to be better understood.
     
  15. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Yes. That is exactly what the NASB did in order to provide an optimal rendering here.

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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The preface to the NKJV states about the same practice they followed also!
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Total fiction. Show me a verse requiring "looser" translation. None, zip, nada.
    You guys are swinging an empty sack. You cannot justify translating children of wrath as deserving of wrath, period. It is an abomination.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Many of us have seen the chart comparing various bibles with more word for word versions on the left and more thought for thought on the right. Those in the middle, such as the NIV and CSB, like to describe their translation method as "optimal." But in actuality, those on the left are closer to optimal, and those more to the right contain more loose and sometimes shoddy translations.

    We should focus and looking at the best, and considering how they can be improved, sometimes with insights gained from the more flawed versions to the right.
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Do children of wrath deserve wrath? Answer with no equivocation.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Only the CSB uses that terminology --the NIV does not.
     
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