Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

I appreciate that you admit you are only giving your opinions.

Obviously, then, you have no calvinist source that agrees with your opinion of their beliefs.

There is no agreement, then, on what the "calvinist" believes. It is impossible, therefore, to debate. You are debating your own opinion of what the calvinist believes, not what they actually believe.

You are debating yourself. Undoubtably, therefore, you will always prevail in your own mind.

As I said several times. This discussion has run its course. I see no reason to continue.

I appreciate the civil discussion.

peace to youraying:

 

They would not say those things and you have not quoted any that say those things.

What you posted from Calvin demonstrates the will of God in electing some to salvation and the will of God in punishing the wicked. I saw nothing that indicates Calvin believed God didn't really want people to come to Him and believe Him and follow Him.

I remember asking you to show me Calvinists that believe God didn't really want people to come to Him when He held out His hands to them but rather, secretly desires their eternal damnation.

You haven't done that, and yet, you keep making the accusation as if you have proved it to be true.

As you like to say.... very revealing.:smilewinkgrin:

Which is why I have spent so much time attempting to direct you to the context of the passages in discussion. In the end, neither your opinion or mine mean anything. The only thing that matters is what God has revealed in His Word.

peace to youraying:

 

A quick thought on the 2 wills theology (of which I generally hold), even non-Cals have to believe in 2 wills of God, though in a different sense from Cals, of course. The non-Cal of course believes that God wills all men to be saved. But the non-Cal must also believe that there is another desire/will of God that trumps His desire to save all men - that is, God loves our libertarian free will (LFW) more than He desires all men to be saved, else we become the dreaded robots of Calvinism. So there are 2 wills in the non-Cal system - one trumps the other in what actually happens - i.e., God loves man's LFW more than He desires all to be saved - otherwise, He would save everyone since He has the power and right to do so, if He so willed...

 

No, you are carrying this too far. Because Pharaoh was super proud and obstinate doesn't mean all men are like this. I doubt you could find a man this rebellious anywhere. If any man saw these miraculous 10 plagues I am sure even the most hardened sinner would come around. And this is shown with Pharaoh's servants.

Notice that Pharaoh's servants were also hardened.

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

But notice in chapter 10 after the plague of locusts (8th plague) that his servants repented.

Exo 10:7 And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed?

His servants had had enough. You do not read of their heart's being hardened after this, only Pharaoh.

So, this is where you err, not every man is as rebellious and stubborn as Pharoah.

 

Yes, what Calvinism denies is obedience through love. God wants us to love him of our own free will, not force.

The same with my children, I want them to obey me because they know and understand that when I give them instruction it is for their own good.

A perfect example is my oldest daughter, now 33. When she was around 17 we had a big argument once. She wanted to go out with this fellow and a few other friends for the evening. This fellow was not her boyfriend. I knew this young man and liked him very much except for one thing, he had a souped up car and drove like a maniac. He would often burn rubber and drive as much as 60 MPH down our residential street with many children. He was very reckless.

Well, I liked this kid, I really did, but there is no way I was going to let my daughter go out with him in that car. I had several very close friends get killed in auto accidents when I was young. I told my daughter if they took another car and someone else responsible drove she could go, but not with this fellow driving. I was not trying to prevent her from having fun with her friends, I was trying to prevent her getting killed or injured in an accident.

Of course, being a teen she was very upset. But later on she understood my reasoning.

What I am saying is God wants us to love and trust in him of our own free wills. Faith is a judgment. When you believe in God you are believing he is good and that his rules for us are in our own best interest. The person who does not believe in God feels the opposite. They think of God as a tyrant who wants to rob them of their fun and freedom. The scriptures say that if we do not believe God we make him a liar. So again, faith is a judgment.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Believing in God is believing he is good.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The non-Cal teaches that God will accept or reward anyone who diligently seeks him, the Calvinist teaches that if you are not elect, that God will not even afford you the opportunity to seek him. As Skandelon said, God would be punishing you for not hearing or listening to him after God himself had made you incapable of hearing or listening to him. Even men know this would be absolutely unjust. Such a God would not be good.

 

This is a good analogy to explore from the non-Cal perspective. In the non-Cal system, we are all about to be hit by a bus (i.e., death and hell). God has the power to snatch us all from that impending doom, and He would do that, if that were His strongest desire. But that's not His strongest desire. His strongest desire is that we all come freely to avoid the bus. Therefore, he willingly sends some (many) people to hell, since his stronger desire is for them to come freely and not to force them. Thus, he loves LFW more than he loves saving everyone from hell.

 

But that analogy fails. You assume the person in the street has no ability to avoid the approaching car. But the non-Cal believes a person can hear, understand, and react to a warning from God.

If we shout to the person to get out of the street as a car is approaching, then they can hear, understand, and get out of the street.

And this is the tenor of the scriptures, that God "warns'' us.

Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?

We see here John the Baptist asking the people who warned them, then he gives some warnings of his own. And notice their response, they asked "What shall we do then?". They heard, they understood, and now they want to know what they should do.

The scriptures never even remotely hint that a person is incapable of hearing, understanding, and having the ability to obey God's word. In fact, they show the opposite, that God is often very angry at men because they will not obey him.

I don't know why there is even a debate on this, everybody knows it would be ridiculous for God to repeatedly call for men to repent if man were not able to do so. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Both of these analogies fail because they place man in the "middle ground."

Salvation is not God saving us from running out into oncoming traffic and getting killed. Rather, salvation is God walking among the corpses of those already killed and bringing certain ones back to life.

Put another way, God is not jumping into the water to save us from drowning. God is plunging into the depths of the ocean and taking lifeless corpses of the already drowned and breathing life back into the dead.

Frankly, there is no "middle ground" in scripture. There is either life in Christ or death outside of Christ.

The Archangel

 

I understand that - that's why I prefaced my comment with "explore from a non-Cal perspective." But forget the analogy for now, because it's not that important. The non-Cal system believes that God desires men having the free will to choose heaven or hell more than he desires to actually save them. Otherwise, He would save them regardless if they wanted to or not.

 

I agree - I was exploring the analogy from a non-Cal perspective. See reply to Winman above.

 

Gotcha, Andy. I think your reply to Winman was well said.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Once again you show that yourself and many Calvinists do not understand what spiritual death is. It is a separation from God. It does not mean a lifeless corpse.

Would it make sense to tell a lifeless corpse to repent of their sins? Of course not, even a child would know that.

In Luke 16 we see the rich man who died and went to hell. He is nothing like a corpse, he can see, hear, speak, feel pain, repent and show concern for his lost brothers.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The reason you Calvinists get everything wrong is you don't know or understand scripture. And even when someone shows you, you refuse to listen or learn.

When Adam and Eve sinned they died spiritually, yet they could hear and understand God's voice and respond to him when he called.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

You can persist with your Calvinistic doctrine that the spiritually dead are like a corspe, but you are still in error.

 

Not to be ugly, but your hermeneutics are nightmarishly awful.

So, Calvinists as a whole do not understand scripture? Ummm...ya, I'm sure that's it. More likely it is that you are taking your own understanding of scripture--and the hermeneutical morass that is painfully present in your postings--and holding those "interpretations" as law, even though those "interpretations" go against the clear meaning of the text--even in the King's English, but especially in the Greek or Hebrew.

The sad thing present here is this: Even other Arminian types have tried to correct you about what Calvinists believe and they have also tried to correct your errant understanding of scripture. Yet, you've continued to bury your head in the sand and let the loving (and sometimes not-so-loving) correction fly over your head, preferring to persist in your own little world where the Bible says what Winman says it does rather than what it actually says. So, we have a situation where Winman (and his "interpretation" of the Bible) is a law unto himself--even in opposition to scripture itself.

Dangerous.

The Archangel

 

Nonsense. I have showed you scripture once again to support my view, and it DOES support my view.

If the spiritually dead are not conscious, then what is the fear of hell? Can a corpse feel pain or know torment? No.

You are wrong and you know it. Getting you to admit it is quite another story. I will not hold my breath waiting for that.

 

The Winman is in de' Nile!