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Featured Apostolic Uniqueness

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jul 15, 2021.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This thread concerns itself with several issues.

    What is a biblical Apostle as spoken of in Eph2:20?

    What if anything makes them Unique from other Christians?

    Can a biblical case be offered to show a difference?

    Are all Christians sent ones?

    Are church planters Apostles?

    Are missionaries Apostles?

    Are there biblical Apostles today?

    Were there "signs of an Apostle"?

    Are we to expect new revelation today?

    Are we to look for Apostolic miracles today?

    Mark3

    11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

    12 And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

    13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.

    14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

    15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:


    16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;

    17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

    18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

    19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What I have posted is the promises were unique to the Apostles when after Jn 13 concluded Jesus public ministry.
    The promises of John 14, 15, 16 were to those
    who heard him with whom He promised the Spirit would

    1] guide them into all truth, that is how we have a completed canon.

    2] bring to their remembrance things they saw and heard
    having been with him from the beginning

    3] show them...things to come

    4] they could not bear all He had been teaching them, but He promised the Spirit would help them in particular.

    We were not there, we did not audibly hear Jesus...they did

    Here is what I see plainly taught;


    25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



    25 These things have I spoken unto you, [The Apostles}

    being yet present with you.{
    The Apostles]

    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
    He shall teach you {
    the Apostles}

    All Things,

    and
    bring to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you{the apostles}


    We were not there. Only
    The Apostles were.


    They alone were promised to be taught ALL THINGS.
    They alone were promised that the Spirit would bring to their remembrance whatsoever Jesus said to them.



    Jesus had concluded His public ministry and was now speaking with the Apostles.
    This thread is dealing with the topic of the Apostles and why they were unique and given promises and gifts that we do not receive.




    That being said, there is no verse I know of that promises we are going to receive all truth as in special revelation as the Apostles were. There should not be any confusion on this.
    There is no verse saying we the church are going to be "guided into ALL TRUTH".

    Any "truth "we come to, is given by God . That is not the issue here at all.

    There is something that makes the Apostles different from us.
    All believers have the Spirit of God. Not all believers are Apostles.

    There were signs of an Apostle;
    12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.


    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

    he shall teach you all things,[The Apostles]

    and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    [ you the Apostles]

    Jesus cannot bring to our remembrance what we did not hear Him teach when he was here on Earth.

    Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
    Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes

    However that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jn.15
    26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

    This is addressed to the Apostles;
    mk 3:14
    14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

    jn16;
    4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

    Again, THE APOSTLES...

    jn16;
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

    Jesus is clear that He has many additional truths to teach to the Apostles, but they could not welcome these things until the Spirit allowed them to.
    This is not spoken to the church, but the Apostles. He was speaking and teaching THEM audibly.



    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
    We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".
    We can learn truth from what they wrote, yes. But we are not promised to be guided into ALL TRUTH as they were.

    Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT


    In contrast to the false teachers a test offered in 1jn4 was this;
    6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    John writes this in 1jn1;
    1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In MK16, you would see that the signs followed those who believed...Believed the Apostolic preaching,

    It helps to read the whole passage, not pull out a phrase or two;watch;
    14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

    20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
    Those sign gifts accompany those who heard the apostles in the first century. You were not there to hear them. God tells us he confirmed their word with signs following I have all I need now in scripture as the Holy Spirit quickens it to me

    The part about being bitten by serpents was fulfilled you look in Acts 27 Paul had been bitten and he didn't die but he preached Christ and God used it to save those people and credential his word in the Apostle Paul at that time. It's recorded in scripture for us so we can know what did take place and why it was true and we could also understand that we have to believe the apostolic word








    Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
    Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.

    That being said, the promise given to the Apostles was unique.
    When Jesus promised them they were going to be guided into ALL TRUTH, He was not saying they were going to be instructed on how to build and maintain a computer, or a jet, or solve complex math equations.
    It was a promise that Peter alludes to in 2 pet.1:3

    All things that pertain to life and godliness.
    And again;
    16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    Their word was so authoratative that John could say he who hears us is of God. 1 jn.4 :6
    He who is of God hears US....[the apostles]
    He that is not of God hearth not us.
    Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

    If we were guided into all truth, we would not ever get it wrong.
    Jesus promised the Spirit would bring to their remembrance what they actually heard Jesus preach, and they had been with Him from the beginning.
    The Spirit would show them things to come..

    Only the Apostles were being spoken to.
    There is no verse suggesting that all believers are guided into a truth.
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    jn16:
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.{the Apostles}

    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[​IMG]

    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,
    and shall shew it unto you
    .

    Jn17:
    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    Jesus points to the Apostolic word as the instrument of salvation for those drawn effectually and granted saving faith.

    John 14-17 make it clear that promises made to these men are the backbone of salvation to be proclaimed and believed by these Foundational men.
    If this is the biblical case, we should expect to see the Apostolic sign gifts, being used to credential the Apostolic word in a unique way.
    God in wisdom credentials His unique instruments and the word given by the Spirit to them.
    All through Acts we will see this pattern...preaching, miracles , gifts and signs accompanied both the Apostles and those who lived among them.
    Even after there are thousands of Christians we read that by the hand of the Apostles were these signs done, with the result being the word grew ,spread, and was accepted as from God himself.

    Acts4:
    33
    And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

    34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

    35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet:
    acts5:
    9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

    12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

    Acts10:
    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

    37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

    Acts14:3 Long time therefore abode
    they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

    The word was testified to by the signs of an Apostle.

     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Heb2

    1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

    2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

    3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    Jude3:
    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which
    was once delivered unto the saints.


    These are some introductory considerations. We will address the other concerns also.
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The 12 Apostles of the Lord Jesus, along with Paul. were unique!
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Until you distinguish between the 12 and the other NT apostles, you do not have a case.
     
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello John,
    I believe the verses offered make that exact case. I have only begun to offer on it

    Here is a helpful article that mentions the secondary use of the word.
    What Is an Apostle? | Tabletalk
     
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    What case?

    I don't find the article helpful. For example, it makes the mistake of saying that, according to 1 Cor. 9:1 an apostle must have seen Jesus. That's a pretty basic error for a scholar to make. (And he is a scholar.) However, the four statements in that verse are syntactically parallel, not causative (saying "because") and thus Paul did not say that he was an apostle because he had seen Jesus. The syntax simply does not bear that idea out.

    Also, the author is not a missiologist. You'd be hard put to find a missiologist who agrees with him. The reason is that missiologists study exactly what it means to be a missionary, and guess what--they find that in the NT in the apostles!
     
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I would tend to see this as the greater Apostles being the 12 and Paul, with the rest as lessor ones, like modern Missionaries!
     
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think they either had to be numbered among thne Apostles of Jesus, or had the risen Christ appear to them, such as James and Paul!
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Prove that from the Bible, please.
     
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Explained very well here!
    What Was an Apostle?
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Not helpful. He conflates the requirements to replace Judas as a member of the 12 with later apostleship. Scholars who are not missiologists keep making the same dumb mistakes.
     
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  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Iconoclast... I appreciate all your knowledge of scripture but I don't want to wade through all that... But I do recall that there would be no uniqueness of the Apostles if not for this... Now you brethren play nice... Brother Glen:)

    Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

    3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

    3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

    3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

    3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
     
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would you agree that to be numbered among the greater Apostles of Jesus, either walked with Him, or visited by Him post resurrection?
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Acts 1:21-22 specifically says, "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

    That's not what you said. It doesn't say, "or be visited by Him post resurrection."
     
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  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Christ Jesus was an apostle in the sense that He was sent with a specific task. That is the simplest definition of an apostle. And please note that there is a very real sense in which Christ was doing cross-cultural ministry in His 3 year mission.

    Here is Bill Mounce's definition from his Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary (accessed through E-Sword):
    "one sent as a messenger or agent, the bearer of a commission, messenger, Joh_13:16; an apostle, Mat_10:2."
     
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  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Here is the thing, folks. The book of Acts simply must be looked at with missiological eyes. The usual NT scholar does not do this. As a missionary on furlough, I once took a 4 credit MA level course in Acts. The prof (a good man, but not a missiologist) spent literally hours on the North and South Galatian theories, but never once mentioned doing cross-cultural evangelism or planting churches, yet these two subjects are exactly what the whole book of Acts (and thus apostleship) is about! Remember that the original Greek title was "Acts of the Apostles." Don't even read the book of Acts if you are not thinking of world missions, or you will get it wrong.

    As I did on the previous thread, I'll post here what some leading missiologists have said about this issue, adding some I didn't mention previously:

    A. “The word missionary comes from the Latin word mitto, which means ‘to send.’ It is the equivalent of the Greek word apostello, which also means ‘to send.’ The root meaning of the two words is identical.”
    J. Herbert Kane, The Making of a Missionary (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1975), 13.

    B. “To whom should the term 'missionary' be applied? Obviously today's missionary is not in the same class with the twelve apostles, who must forever remain in a class by themselves (Lk 22:30; Re 21:14). They do, however, have much in common with the 'second-string' apostles who were sent out by the various churches on teaching and preaching missions to all parts of the Roman Empire.”
    Ibid, 14.

    C. “Paul stated that not only was he ordained a preacher, he was also an apostle. Paul knew that he was an apostle (see Acts 22:21; I Tim. 1:1). A missionary is, in a sense, an apostle. The word “missionary” is the exact Latin equivalent for the Greek word “apostle.” Both words have the same meaning—“one who has been sent.” Jesus said to His disciples after His resurrection, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you” (John 20:21).”
    G. Christian Weiss, The Heart of Missionary Theology (Lincoln, NE: Back to the Bible, 1976), 66-67.

    D. “The very name of the book (of Acts) is in keeping with this through. The word ‘apostle’ (from the Greek apostello—‘I send’) is a synonym for ‘missionary’ (from the Latin mitto—‘I send’). An apostle, or missionary, is a ‘sent-one,’ and so the book might just as accurately have been called ‘The Doings of the Missionaries.’”[4]
    Robert Hall Glover, The Bible Basis of Missions (Chicago: Moody Press, 1946), 26.

    E. “After a careful examination of the Biblical data James Hastings in his Dictionary of the Apostolic Church comes to the following conclusion: ‘The cumulative effect of the facts and probabilities stated above is very strong—so strong that we are justified in affirming that in the New Testament there are persons other than the Twelve and St. Paul who were called apostles, and in conjecturing that they were rather numerous. All who seemed to be called by Christ or the Spirit to do missionary work would be thought worthy of the title, especially such as had been in personal contact with the Master.’ This conclusion is substantiated by the usage of the word apostle for itinerant ministers in the subapostolic age.”
    George Peters, "Let the Missionary Be a Missionary,” Bib. Sac. (Oct-Dec. 1965).

    F. “In the New Testament there are two kinds of apostles. First, there is the relatively small group of those who were personally chosen and instructed by the Lord. These men held the office of apostle, to which there is no succession. Second, there are those men who had the gift of apostleship and were called ‘messengers [apostoloi] of the churches’ (2 Cor. 8:23). In this group were included such men as Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, Epaphroditus, Andronicus, and Junias.”
    David Hesselgrave, Planting Churches Cross-Culturally (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2000), 95.
     
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