Are All Works Sin?

For the most part, I agree with you. My only point of contention would be that there are no meritorious works. I agree that there are instructions that MUST be obeyed in order to be saved and I agree, they are not meritorious. The other good works that we do because we are saved, which are also required, but still I don't think these are meritorious.

The mental gymnastics that some people must perform to harmonize faith and works is quite amazing.

The Hebrew writer devotes a whole chapter (Ch 11) to faith by describing the ACTIONS of various bible characters. Yes the Hebrew writer use examples from the OT to show faith, but this NT chapter states that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Heb 11:6). Then he gives example after example of what kind of faith God requires.

Some equate faith to mental assent, but the bible does not.

Biblical faith is believing God and doing what He says.

One simple example is "by faith the walls of Jericho fell down" - Heb 11:30. Surely nobody is so deceived as to believe that "by mental assent, the walls of Jericho fell down". Their actions, though they were required, were not meritorious in any way.

Many cannot reconcile baptism and faith. Paul does quite simply when he states, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27. Christians are children of God by faith because they have been baptized. This is not meritorious but by faith.

If we read Eph 2:8-9 in context, it is clear what Paul is talking about. Gal 3:26-27 is not in confilt with Eph 2, but they are in complete harmony.

Eph 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

When were we dead, made alive and raised up together with Christ? Paul makes that clear in the book of Romans, chapter 6.

Rom 6:1-8, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

He clearly states that it is at biblical baptism when we die and are buried, then made alive to walk in a new life, and raised together with Christ, which is in complete harmony with Eph 2.

Again, one scripture does not negate another, but all are in perfect harmony. When we obey, it is not meritorious, but by God's grace that we are saved.

Rom 6:17-18, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

You were....you obeyed....you became. How simple.

 

Certainly an active faith. Passive faith is a misnomer. Passive faith is a dead faith that cannot save (James 2:14). Even active faith without love profits nothing (I Cor 13:2-3).

Notice John 3:36 - "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." - ESV

The KJV translators translate 2 different Greek words as the same English word "believe", and an important distinction is obscured. NAS and ESV and others make the distinction and translate the second word as obey.

Does this sound like a "passive" faith is acceptable?

The same Greek words are used in Heb 3:16-19, "For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief."

Why were they not allowed in? Not obeying or not believing?

Had they stopped believing in God? Did they no longer have a mental assent of God? How could they not believe in God. They had seen the plagues, been led through the Red Sea on dry ground, and so on. They believed in God, they just stopped obeying Him. Therefore, they could not enter because of disobedience or in other words, unbelief.

Many will point to the Philipian jailor in Acts 16 as a "passive" faith. Closer investigation shows differently.

Acts 16:30-34 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

He rejoiced having believed in God. This rejoicing came only after he heard the word of the Lord and was baptized and is summed up in the phrase that he "had believed in God".

Again, it is summed up quite nicely by Paul in Gal 3:26-27 which in a nut shell says that by faith we are the childern of God because we have been baptized.

We don't earn any part of our salvation, not one iota. We are childern of God by faith because we obey Him.

In Heb 11:6 it says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Then example after example is given of pleasing faith.

Find one example of passive faith that has ever been pleasing to God. The only faith that has ever been pleasing to God is one that does what He says.

I have more to say, but I have to run.

 

ZOW-eeeeee! Whoa! Please, someone, give us some original Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, whatever in context here. This one hit me right between the eyes!

 

The verse says, "But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" - Rom 14:23

If you have doubts about something, it is sinful for you to participate. I think that is what they were trying to say. This applies for our daily lives as well as in our worship to God.

What is the source of faith? Paul had already told them, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Rom 10:17

To practice something in faith, it must be addressed in God's word. YOU CANNOT HAVE FAITH IS SOMETHING THAT GOD DID NOT ADDRESS. IMPOSSIBLE!

I don't want to hijack this thread, but am giving this as an example. If man wants to add mechanical instruments of music to worship, which God has not commanded, I cannot join them and do that in faith. They cannot do it in faith either.

What ever we do in word or deed should be done by the authority of, or in the name of Christ - Col 3:17

How can one use instrumental music by the authority of Christ? They CANNOT.

Using this principle, I cannot worship anywhere that uses instrumental music in their worship, because it would be sinful for me. Yet in man's desire to please himself, he has added this element, which God has not commanded, and divided us because of their desires without regard to what God has said.

How can anyone know what God wants in worship to Him? God has told us. Our worship MUST be in TRUTH (Jn 4:23-24).

What is the source of truth? God's word (Jn 17:17).

To worship in truth is to worship in accord with what God has said, not on what He ommitted.

TRUTH IS NOT WHAT GOD DID NOT SAY, BUT WHAT HE DID SAY. God's word is TRUTH, not God's silence.

 

That's not the act of plowing, but actually a noun (one of those nouns made from a past tense of a verb). The same word is also translated "Fallow ground" and "tillage" (Jer. 4:3 Ho 10:12 Pr.13:23). Obviously, plowed land is not evil, so this is a figurative statement.
Saying "every move the sinner makes is sin" is confusing the issue. Why is the person "wicked" in the first place? Is plowing the ground, what made him a sinner, or at least part of what made him a sinner? It would have to be, in order to be called "Sin". Not, it's other acts he did, that the Bible says are sin, that made him a sinner. We can say "every move he makes, even the plowing of the ground is done in the state of sin (meaning that no matter what he does he is condemned), but that is not the same as saying that every act is sin.

mman, I see you're back, and I don't know why you have to bring up these tangents of your reworked definition of faith (things people DO are not "works", but are "faith"), with many of the old arguments that have been answered long ago. There are hundreds of things we do daily that are not mentioned or "addressed" in the Bible, (And this IS what you said this time; you cannot have "faith" in something God did not "address") but then you add the loophole "expediency". If you have to go back and patch something up like that, the argument is obviously full of holes. The way you take "by faith the walls of jericho fell" made it sound like the walls are what had faith. Obviously, you're not quoting any of these profftexts right. People had faith which led them to obey, causing the walls to fall down. While that is held up as an example to us, it is not the way salvation in the NT works. We obey as part of our faith, but the deeds are not faith; else, any unbeliever who does the same deeds must be saved by faith. Now, you'll have to say "oh, it's faith plus works", but you'd be better off saying that from the getgo. Of course, that will be attacked with all the scriptures saying "not of works".

 

Ha!

Re-worked definition of faith. Read Heb 11 and then we'll talk.

If you don't like God's description, I can't change that.

Answer this one question. According to Hebrews, why couldn't the Israelites enter into the promised land, unbelief or disobedience? If you answer that correctly, we'll be in agreement.

Also you fail to realize the difference in making up a new command and carrying out a command of God.

If God said to "go teach all nations", then I am not limited in how I go. I can go via car, plane, walking, camel, or however I want. I am still carrying out the command of God. That is expediency.

God told Noah to use gopher wood. As far as I know, He did not tell him where to get it. Noah was free to choose from what ever source was available. He could use saws, hammers, or whatever else he had available in building the ark of gopher wood. That is expedincy. He is expiditing a command of God.

It would have been wrong for him to use another type of wood. That is adding too.

This is so basic and easy to understand.

God has commanded singing. We can use books, song leaders, or what ever else we need in order to carry out that command. However we cannot add another type of music any more than Noah could add another type of wood.

Another thread should be opened if you would like to discuss that further.

Truth lies in parallel, never contradicting itself. One passage may modify another, but never will it contradict another.

Your statement about "quoting" proof text is telling. You obviously don't like the clear conclusion of the text.

How should I quote "proof texts"? By changing them to mean somthing other than what they say, such as "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized"?

In your mind, you may have adequately answered my positions, but your attempts are certainly lacking in my mind.

 

works as sin

Works without faith IS sin. but works in faith is needful. Remember Paul told us to be careful in maintaining good works.

 

That chapter does not go into all the elaboration that you do, that their deeds were not "work", but that the DEEDS themselves were "faith". In fact, the first three verses demolish that whole argument. "Now faith is..." what? "All these THINGS we do to be saved"? No. "..the substance (margin: ground or confidence) of things HOPED for. For by it, the elders obtained a good report. Through faith, we..." what, do all the works the elders did? No, we "...UNDERSTAND that the worlds were framed by the word of God...". Right here, the very first example of "faith" is a belief, not a work. Then, the passage goes on the give all the examples of the faithful who BELIEVED, which was MANIFEST through there works. This of course is to motivate us to let our faith lead us to doing good works. But v.3 sets the stage by saying that faith is understanding, not the works themselves. Nowhere does the chapter say "faith IS works". So to take it that way IS "reworking".

It's BOTH. Disobedience can stem from unbelief, and unbelief is a form of disobedience. But that still does not suggest your "faith=works" idea.

Look at what you SAID before:

What is the source of faith? Paul had already told them, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Rom 10:17

To practice something in faith, it must be addressed in God's word. YOU CANNOT HAVE FAITH IS [sic] SOMETHING THAT GOD DID NOT ADDRESS. IMPOSSIBLE!

So now, you must go back and clarify this, with "it helps me carry out the command", just like I said. But that is not what your statement would suggest. If that statement was right, then God should have addressed everyone with every minute detail, about which tools for Noah to use; which vehicles for us to use, and how to sing. So your statements are contradictory, and you only use the "regulatory principle" to fabricate this ridiculous instruments argument, and no other reason, but it doesn't work in the rest of life, so you have to come up with "expediency" to get around it. Just let everyone else carry out the command to worship God whichever way, and not try to find some issue to claim your sect is better (truer) than everyone else, and we won;t have all this strife.

But you're the one making them contradict

As I showed above, it's not clear. You have read your own meaning into it, and other verses contradict what you are saying.

Take the texts as a whole. Don't take one text like that, and run with what you think it means, and then you're contradicting other texts.

In your mind, you think you have handled scripture properly, but it is lacking in most everyone's mind.

 

My point there was not this argument of whether "belief saved by itself". It's the legalist argument that "Faith IS works", and v. 3 shows that it is defined by a belief. This is supposed to produce works, but it is not itself defined by the works.

 

In the context of the passage we are discussing, it says "by faith we UNDERSTAND the world was framed by God...". This part of it, is yes, a mental assent. Then the chapter goes on to show the works that accompany faith.

A work is an act or deed one does.
It is initiated by an act of the will, which is why we have the close connection between faith and works

That's a work (act) that takes place in the mind. Evil works are not connected with faith. "Faith" in the devil; I take it to mean that he will do something for you, is of course not what the Bible is teaching us. As far as "mental assent", we have mental assent that there is a devil, but that is not "faith" in him. Still, that does not mean that someone would have to DO something to have faith that he will help you somehow, or whatever, even though most followers of his will be doing all kinds of stuff.

That's the difference between "mere" mental assent to one's existance, and faith. We are TRUSTing Christ to do something for us. Not just "believing that He exists", and at the same time, we don' try to do what we are trusting Him for ourselves; because that then isn't trusting Him either.