Are Catholics saved or even christians?

Then why do both the CCC and the Council of Trent say that it's the sinner who must expiate his own sins?

So then, again, what do you do with the idea of ex ecclesia nulla salas and the idea that sinners must expiate their own sins in Purgatory?

Then what is the purpose of Purgatory? The Catholic Church says it's for sinners to expiate their sins. You say it's something else. What is it?

But the Bible says that Christ has already perfected forever those whom He has sanctified.

Why isn't Christ's perfection good enough?

JACKPOT! Christ's work on the cross + your good works.

 

Ok what the Catholic Church says:

 

How so?

 

Because John was saying that a Catholic should be better to answer what it is the Catholic church teaches than a baptist.

 

What is your source?

I am using this:

 

The catachism of the Catholic Church. 1989 (section number)

 

As I mentioned in a past post, you might want to read Mark 2:4-5
Notice whose faith Jesus saw that prompted him to cure the paralytic. Was it the paralytic's, the four who carried him to Jesus, those who opened the roof, or all of the above? Was it enough to just believe? Well, yes and no. Because they believed, they did something. They did a good work for their friend by bringing him to Jesus. His cure was the result.

That is why we pray for those in purgatory. In some mysteriuos way, our sacrifices and prayers help those who are there. But it is Jesus who heals. So purgatory is not so much a place as a process whereby all that is not love is purged from the soul. What remains is a saint, which is a holy one.
__________________

 

Good post!

 

Cool.

The statement is unblibcal and a perverted Gospel.

Conversion by the Holy Spirit does not effect justification. Justification is a matter of righteousness which is imputed to the sinner.

At least they are honest, blending and bluring and erasing the line between justification and sanctification. These are they who go about seeking to establish their own righteousness and do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God.

These are truly the sons and daughters of the pharisees.

 

Oh, he made the non sequiter. Sorry. I misunderstood.

 

But people in Purgatory do not need to be healed. They need to be saved and their sins expiated.

Then why does the Bible say that all born again believers are already saints?

 

What do you mean imputed? See I think its this that is the heart of the issue with Justification. Typical Protestant hypothesis. Declared righteous. Typical Catholic. Made righteous. However, Salvation begins before both definitions with faith.

 

And this brings up another serious difference between the Catholic understanding of justification and the Biblical doctrine of justification:

Catholics believe in infused righteousness, while the Bible very clearly teaches imputed righteousness.

 

'They need to be saved and their sins expiated.' Show me in the Catechism where it says that a person gets saved in purgatory. This is another mis-conception of protestants.

 

I've already shown you in both the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and from the Council of Trent.

 

Your right, I think, that imputation being at the heart of the difference. As John stated, justification to a Roman Catholic is a process where righteousness is infused.

But what does the Bible say?

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Rom 3:21-22

What is seen here?

1. The righteousness of God without the law, or, without the works of the law, or, without man.

2. The Scriptures give witness to THIS righteousness, that is, God's righteousness.

3. This righteousness of God is by faith.

4. It is unto all and UPON all them that believe, Jew or Gentile.

 

Did you? Show me again where it says a person gets saved in purgatory. The Catholic teaching is that purgatory is ONLY for those who are saved.

You really don't understand the meaning of purgatory or the Catholic teaching on it.

 

I've shown you from two different Catholic documents what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. So far, you haven't been able to refute them.

Just repeating "you don't know what you're talking about" over and over is not the same as refuting something.

 

Here is something that Catholics and protestants do agree on. We agree that the blood of Our Redeemer is the true purgatory of souls; for in it are cleansed all the souls in the world

 

No, I disagree. That is the most disgusting and God-dishonoring description of the blood of Christ I think I have ever read.