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Featured Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    Since the beginning, there have been those who have inserted changes to fit their own doctrinal bias.
    Because they are predisposed to mans 'ideas' and 'interpretation', rather than the truth, their can be changes by unscrupulous men or those who do not fear God. This was the reason the Jews would not change the text, but do a word for word translation or manuscript, and this is not the case at the least for most of these 'modern' versions.

    Lets compare one verse, 1 John 4:3:

    NIV - but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    RSV - and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

    ASV and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

    KJV - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    We see here in 1 John 4:3 that the NIV takes out the whole point in the text, "NIV leaves out the fact that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh--yet another swipe at the divinity of Christ." https://mundall.com/erik/NIV-KJV.htm
     
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  2. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not change doctrine. This is an overly used argument of KJVO.
     
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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, both the nas and 1984 Niv support the Deity of Jesus more so than even the kjv did!
     
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  4. Ziggy

    Ziggy Active Member
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    The issue in the variant reading is the incarnation itself, not just merely accepting or rejecting Jesus as savior. If John is opposing Docetism, as per most commentaries, the variant clearly makes sense in context,and should not have been rejected by the NIV.

    Note that this is not a KJV-only issue, but a divide between the critical text and majority text positions. In this case, the omission of the phrase could have been caused by homoioarcton, skipping from εν to εκ in the phrase Εν σαρκι εληλυθοτα Εκ.
     
    #4 Ziggy, Feb 8, 2020
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  5. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    But take a look, you can see some important doctrinal truths that are attacked by these 'modern' versions. We see here where they even refutes the idea that the Bible is the preserved, inspired, Word of God. Note:

    Psalms 12:6-7 (KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Psalms 12:6-7 (NIV) And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. 7 O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever.

    Can you see how the meaning is completely blurred by this supposed improved "Bible".

    Now lets look at how just changing "God" to "He" they remove the fact that Jesus is God.

    1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    1 Timothy 3:16 (NIV) Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

    1 Timothy 3:16 (NASB) By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,
    Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world,Taken up in glory.

    Now look how by changing "Christ" to "God" they deny that Jesus is God.

    Romans 14:10 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:12 (KJV) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    Romans 14:10 (NIV) You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. Romans 14:12 (NIV) So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

    Romans 14:10 (NASB) But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. Romans 14:12 (NASB) So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

    Now what happened here...

    John 9:35 (KJV) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

    John 9:35 (NIV) Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

    John 9:35 (NASB) Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

    Its a shading of the truth of His divinity, what Jesus directly lays claim to.
     
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  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Active Member
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    As soon as the long-discredited claim about Ps 2:7 comes up, it is obvious this is a KJV-only post.
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How about where the KJV has it as the coming/appearing of our great God, and Jesus Christ, so looks like 2 different persons, while modern versions correctly have Jesus called both Great God and Savior!
     
  8. Rippon2

    Rippon2 Active Member

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    The current NIV supports the Deity of Christ in a clearer fashion than the KJV does also.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions?

    No. BUT modern versions may be affected by doctrine.
     
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  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    And by one of your favorite terms 'philosophy", such in how much to go into gender inclusiveness!
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    When we consider Adam's pre-fall spiritual nature we are by definition dealing with philosophy. It is not a bad word and has its purpose and place in Theology
     
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  12. JosephBKuzara

    JosephBKuzara Member

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    Yes the multiple variant english copies lack and can if one is not careful and patient on studying can lead one into a wrongful interpretation. Where one word for word Bible lacks accuracy another helps restore accuracy. And so you have this back and forth result when sifting through the crap Satan influenced people to write into these versions in order to get to the truth. So I do not hold to one copied word for word version but use all of them backed with the Greek and Hebrew sources.

    The Word of God is intact but has been displaced amongst the sources.

    I rely solely on God to guide me toward the truth. And understand He has allowed division so that one can know who is approved of God.
     
  13. Rippon2

    Rippon2 Active Member

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    What doctrine is affected by inclusive language, say, in the NIV --since you are always on code for that particular version.
     
  14. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    Yes, but God has His people who guard His Word also, so we need to read what it has, then let the Holy Spirit guide us. Now as for these being the oldest manuscripts, here is a good overview on the "these are the oldest thus best" idea:

    "The oldest representatives of the "purely" Alexandrian group of texts are the two "great" uncials, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (Aleph and B, respectively). Both of these manuscripts date to the 4th century, with Vaticanus proffered as from the latter quarter of the century, and Sinaiticus being from around the middle of the century. Several scholars have even suggested that these uncials are two of the original 50 copies of the New Testament text which were made by Eusebius for official Church use at the behest of Emperor Constantine.5 Thus, the oldest pure Alexandrian manuscripts date to around 350 AD and after, nearly three centuries after the penning of the original autographs. The problem for the antiquity interpretation of the modern textual scholars which immediately arises is that corruption (both accidental and purposeful) in the New Testament text was greatest in the first two centuries after the revelation of the New Testament (roughly 80-200 AD). Scrivener argues that the worst corruption to strike the New Testament texts occurred within a century of their composition.6 Further, Colwell states that "The overwhelming majority of readings were created before the year 200..."7 It was during this period, while many books were still in the process of filtering out to Christian communities all across the Empire, that heretical texts would have been easiest to introduce and pass off as legitimate Scripture. Kilpatrick argues that with the advent of the 3rd century, it then became nearly impossible to change the text of the New Testament in a way which would have been either accepted or unnoticed by Christians at large, "Origen's treatment of Matt. 19:19 is significant in two other ways. First he was probably the most influential commentator of the Ancient Church and yet his conjecture at this point seems to have influenced only one manuscript of a local version of the New Testament. The Greek tradition is apparently unaffected by it. From the third century onward even an Origen could not effectively alter that text. "This brings us to the second significant point - his date.

    From the early third century onward the freedom to alter the text which had obtained earlier can no longer be practiced. Tatian is the last author to make deliberate changes in the text of whom we have explicit information. Between Tatian and Origen Christian opinion had so changed that it was no longer possible to make changes in the text whether they were harmless or not."8 Thus, even by the 3rd century, and definitely by the fourth, the Scriptures were more thoroughly distributed and Christians were better able to compare texts and reject heretical manuscripts. Once the faithfulness in transmission for the texts had solidified, the issue then becomes one of competing textual lines, between which Christians of that age had to choose. This is where the age of the Alexandrian exemplars actually works to the detriment of modern theories based upon antiquity.

    What needs to be understood about the ancient manuscripts is that there were basically two types of media for texts - vellum and papyrus. Neither of these media are especially durable. Vellum (dried skins of sheep or other animals) was more rugged and expensive, and was used in the copies of the Scriptures held for "official" use by the churches, and by more wealthy individuals. Both Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are vellum manuscripts, and as such, were probably intended for use in Christian assemblies or liturgy. However, vellum scrolls will wear out over time through use and need to be replaced (just as a well-used Bible today will tend to do). Back in the day, they did not have rebinding services like we have for Bibles to give added years to the life of a scroll, so the scroll had to be transcribed into a new manuscript....

    The obvious point to all this, then, is: "why are such old exemplars even still in existence and in the relatively good condition which they are, since they are over fifteen centuries old?" The answer suggested by numerous scholars such as Van Bruggen, Pickering, and others is that these scrolls are in good condition despite their age because they were never used... " http://www.verhoevenmarc.be/PDF/GnosticCorruptions.pdf
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are you a KJVO?
     
  16. JosephBKuzara

    JosephBKuzara Member

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    From my message, I do not see how one can come to that conclusion or even question me as being part of that movement. The KJV has it's moments of error aswell that thankfully The Spirit has helped me to notice asap throughout my studies as with other word for word versions. I can't stand paraphrase versions so I don't even bother with them as they water down and leave out alot of important keywords to identify the authors intentions of their teachings.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, glad to hear that you do not belong to that group, as they are almost cult like in their obedience to just the Kjv, and all other translations being wrong, or even worse, they see some as "satanic"
     
  18. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    The NIV is purposely is taking a swipe at the divinity of Christ, as the NIV is based on the corrupted Gnostic Alexandrian manuscripts which Hort and Westcott picked up.
    NIV based on Alexandrian Manuscripts - Preserved Word Ministries

    Here is a good explanation on the affects of Gnosticism, "...Simon Magus, after his rejection by Peter, began to fashion his own "Christian" church -- a church of which HE was head -- a church designed to completely overthrow the True Church of God. His idea was to blend together Babylonian teaching with some of the teachings of Christ -- especially to take the name of Christ -- and thus create ONE UNIVERSAL CHURCH! But a church with Babylonianism as its basis.

    Harnack, a church historian, states that Simon Magus "proclaimed a doctrine in which the Jewish faith was strangely and grotesquely mixed with BABYLONIAN myths, together with some Greek additions. The mysterious worship . . . in consequence of the widened horizon and the deepening religious feeling, finally the wild SYNCRETISM [that is, blending together of religious beliefs], whose aim WAS A UNIVERSAL RELIGION, all contributed to gain adherents for Simon" (Vol. 1, p. 244).

    Simon can be classified among the major group of so-called Christians (and Simon called himself such), called by Harnack the: "decidedly anti-Jewish groups . . . . They advanced much further in the criticism of the Old Testament and perceived the impossibility of saving it [that is, the Old Testament] for the Christian UNIVERSAL RELIGION. They rather connected this [universal] religion with the cultus-wisdom of BABYLON and SYRIA" (VoI. 1, p. 246).

    With this background, we can understand why Peter so strongly rebuked Simon for his Babylonian ideas. Peter prophesied that this was the man who was to be the "gall of bitterness, and bond of iniquity" to the True Church. Simon' s attitude was corrupt in the extreme!...
    What Simon did was to bring in the Babylonian and Greek religious beliefs into a form of Christianity in order to bring about, as Harnack says, a universal (Catholic) religion.

    “The Amalgam of paganism and Christianity which was characteristic of Gnosticism, and which was especially obvious in the Simonian system, is readily explicable in the teaching of Simon Magus, who, according to the story in Acts, was brought into intimate contact with Christian teaching without becoming a genuine member (Ibid., p. 496).

    We further find in Schaff’s History of the Church a reference to this Simon Magus, He says:

    “The author, or first representative of this baptized heathenism, according to the uniform testimony of Christian antiquity, is Simon Magus, who unquestionably adulterated Christianity with pagan ideas and practices, and give himself out, in a pantheistic style for an emanation of God” Apostolic Christianity, Vol. 2, p. 566.
    "...From The Church Of God, New World Ministries - Babylonian Religion (Part 2)

    While the church at Rome was allowing ancient religious ideas and paganism to creep into its teachings, the church in Alexandria was being corrupted by Greek philosophy and constructing doctrines influenced by Plato and the Stoics. You find it in the writings of Clement of Alexandria head of the Catechetical School of Alexandria. He united Greek philosophical traditions with Christian doctrine. He used the term "gnostic" for Christians who had attained the deeper teaching of the Logos which he felt was a lesser form of God.

    He arose from Alexandria's Catechetical School and was well versed in pagan literature which it seems he used to develop his doctrines. Clement is best remembered as the teacher of Origen who followed him as head of Alexandria's Catechetical School and interpreted scripture allegorically and showed himself to be a Neo-Pythagorean, and Neo-Platonist. Like Plotinus, he wrote that the soul passes through successive stages of incarnation before eventually reaching God. He imagined even demons being reunited with God. His works were used in the formulation of the early churches doctrines.

    So we see where the twisting of the nature Christ begins, and the sources that it came from. It was to confuse and mislead many which we see even to this day in many of these Modern Versions.
     
  19. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Same song, 2,000th verse, still not looking at reality of what is or is not invovled in modern translations. Same KJVO trash.
     
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  20. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    So Gnosticism is fine with you?
     
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