Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

Come on, Jesus himself said he would be in the "heart" of the earth for three days. Do you really believe the surface of the earth is the "heart" of the earth? And this shows that Jesus was speaking of his soul and not his body, as his body was buried above the surface of the ground. Yes, it was a man-made cave, but a stone had to be rolled in front of it which shows it was on surface level.

Well, both David and Peter said that Jesus's "soul" was not left in "hell". Read for yourself.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Well, now you know better.

You are reading into the verse what it does not say.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I don't see any mention of heaven in this verse. And Jesus himself said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth. Jesus was speaking here of "trust". He is trusting his very soul into his Father's hands, who raised him up three days later.

Well, it may not fit your preconceived beliefs, but it is completely scriptural and I have provided scripture for everything I have presented. Look in your Bible, and see if these verses are not there.

I'll be waiting.

 

Keep to the facts. The verse says inherit, not enter.

 

The scriptures say Enoch was translated. Now, I am not exactly sure what this means, but it does mean from one form to another. This could be describing when corruption puts on incorruption as at the Rapture.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I do not believe it is too much of a stretch to believe that when Enoch was translated that he was changed as shown in 1 Cor 15:51-52.

As for Elijah, nothing is said on this matter, so I won't comment.

 

The passage above describes the return of Jesus Christ at which time the believers will be resurrected. That which Ecclesiastes 12:7 says is dust will become the resurrection body of the believer. I remind you again what Ecclesiastes states: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This passage is speaking of the death of the believer. Again, the passage Matthew 24:29-31 is the prelude to the resurrection of the believer.

 

Yes, but the word "then" connects this verse to the preceding verses. So, this will not occur until those things that happen in verses 1-6 takes place.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What I am showing is that you are pulling one verse out of context.

 

Sorry, but I prefer the scriptures over the opinions of men. The scriptures clearly say Jesus soul was in hell.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

If you want to listen to men try to explain this away, that is your choice.

These verses also show that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And you do not believe God the Father can be in hell? The scriptures say otherwise.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

And if Jesus ascended up to God the Father when he died on the cross, why did he tell Mary Magdelene that he had not yet ascended to his Father on the day he rose from the dead?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now, if Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven to be with his Father, where was his soul for those three days?

 

Ann, I just wanted to point this out...
These 3 scriptures cover 2 different time periods...

Luke is pre resurrection
The other 2 are post resurrection...

I believe, like many Baptist before me, that Jesus took Paradise which was in the heart of the Earth to the Third Heaven upon his ascension...

So naturally, the scriptures in 2 Cor. and Rev. speak of Paradise and Heaven as the same...

But before that, Paradise was in the Heart of the Earth... with a big gulf seperating it from (Fiery) Hell.

 

Yes, Ephesians 4 shows that Jesus led the saved dead out of the earth and delivered Paradise up to heaven. It is only after Jesus ascended to his Father that Paradise is spoken of as being up.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Notice verse 8 says "when" he ascended up on high he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. Perhaps this was the mansions Jesus spoke of, I am not completely certain on that.

But notice verse 9 says that he "first" descended into the lower parts of the earth. This phrase is also used in Psalms 63 and is clearly speaking of hell.

Psalms 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

 

You have 2 problems here.
1st. Sheol does not mean grave onlyand should never be interpreted as such. Sheol means place of the dead and refers to both where the body is and where the spirit resides - at the same time. To speak of one (using this word) was to speak simultaneously of the other with emphasis more toward the spirit. Sheol is never used to mean only the grave. When the term is used There are other Hebrew words that mean grave, tomb, etc, and are used frequently in scripture. Sheol historically was understood in like manner that hades was, and is why both are used to speak of the same place. Hades which was like (or similar to) sheol was a place where both the godly and the ungodly dwell though they were in seperate places or better the comparments in which they resided were divided.


2nd. When Jesus stated 'into Your hands I commend My spirit' is a statement equivalent to 'my life/being is in Your hands' or 'the safety of my spirit is in Your care'.

This reflects David's prophetic statement of God not leaving His soul in sheol.
Sheol or the 'place of the dead' refers to both the physical and spiritual aspects at the same time.

The term paradise does mean garden but it also infers the place where God's people are. Since sin can not enter heaven and blood of bulls and goats could not remove it, no one could enter heaven. Even Jesus stated that no one had yet ascended to the Father.

This is an event after the resurrection.

Again after the Resurrection.

Most theologians believe the Tree is representive of Jesus.
However this, again, is after Christ's resurrection.

Do a little diggin on early church views

Actaully it IS in the Apostles Creed and is even acknowledged by scholars (as shown above) that it 'was' in his creeds as well.

First, this is just postulation in the first half of the sentence. Second, using the term hades refers to the place of the dead where both the godly and ungodly dwelled, where as gehenna refers specifically to the firery aspect for the unbelievers.

This is poor information and I'm curious where you got it from. He didn't 'preserve' anything intentionally however the one 'most' preserved was the later. One can make almost any kind argument based only on that fact, whether for or against. What you failed to note however is that it was recorded long before the Arians used it, which of course they used other things which were in line other aspects of commonly held creeds as well. That didn't make them untrue. I would say do a little more research on it and use more than one or two authors. This is not demeaning or belittling you sister. You will find there is more to it than the above.

 

I have already provided the scriptures, does it matter who presents them?

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

There it is in verse 8, it says "when" Jesus ascended he led captivity captive. Many believe this to be speaking of the saved who were in Paradise, which at that time was in the heart of the earth.

And verse 9 makes it clear that the ascension spoken of is after Jesus first descended into the "lower parts" of the earth.

The reason Jesus could not be touched was because as high priest he had to sprinkle his blood on the Mercy Seat. As Allan wrote, the blood of bulls and rams could only cover sins, not take them away. So men could not ascend into heaven until Jesus offered his own blood once and for all.

This compares to the blood offered by Aaron in Leviticus chapter 16. Read there and you will see the high priest had to wash himself and could not be touched by the people.

And the scriptures say Jesus became our high priest.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

You can listen to men if you want, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended up to heaven. They could not until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the Mercy Seat there.

 

I am in agreement with Winman. This view is quite common and in fact it is taught in the study notes of the King James Study Bible, which previously was the Liberty Study Bible of Liberty University.

 

Yes, that was eight days later.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Notice the doors were shut. Jesus suddenly appeared in the midst of them.

And we could not come into the holiest (heaven) until Jesus blood was offered.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now we can enter in

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

I haven't yet seen anyone present any Scripture that shows that Paradise is different from Heaven. I believe that is the question posed in the OP is it not.

 

What about Enoch and Elijah. Both are said to have been taken to heaven in bodily form.

You may ignore Ecclesiastes 12.7 and John Gill's interpretation if you choose but I believe that you are incorrect. In Ecclesiastes 3:21 we have a similar teaching:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

John Gill comments on this passage as follows:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? &c.] There is indeed a difference between a man and a beast; though they have one breath, they have not one spirit or soul; man has a rational and immortal soul, which, when he dies, goes upwards to God that gave it; to be judged by him, and disposed of by him, in its proper apartment, until the day of the resurrection of the body;

and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? when the beast dies, its spirit goes down to the earth, from whence it came, and is resolved into it, and is no more. But who is it that sees, or can see and know with the eyes of his body, the difference of these two spirits, or the ascent of the one, and the descent of the other?, Or who knows by the dint of reason, by the strength of his own understanding, without a divine revelation, that man has an immortal soul which goes upwards at death, when that of a beast goes downwards? No man, clearly and fully, as appears from the doubts and half faith of the wisest Heathens concerning it: or rather who knows and considers this difference between the spirit of a man and the spirit of a beast, and thinks within himself what a precious and immortal soul he has, and is concerned for the salvation of it? Very few; and hence it is they live and die like beasts, as they do. The Midrash interprets this of the souls of the righteous that go up to heaven, and of the souls of the wicked that go down to hell.

It is not clear to me from reading your posts, and those who agree with you, whether you believe that the body and soul of Jesus Christ went to the hell of Satan or not. That is Word of Faith doctrine which is heretical.

I believe that when Jesus Christ, the man, died that His body went into the grave and His soul went into the presence of God to await the resurrection of His body. When Jesus Christ told the thief on the cross that they would be together in Paradise that day He was speaking of their spiritual natures and He meant they would be in the presence of GOD.

I have yet to see anyone present Scripture to show that Paradise of GOD is not Heaven. I believe that is the question posed in the OP is it not.