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Featured Are individuals born evil or made that way?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Neonap, Feb 15, 2017.

  1. Neonap

    Neonap New Member
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    Hello everyone this is my first post here, looking forward to getting to bond with fellow believers and have some of my questions answered.


    Are people born totally evil or made that way by the world around them?

    The reason I'm asking this question is because I've always pondered on whether people are born evil or made that way by the environment/world around them. I also think we are both good and evil because we all are made in the image of God, which means we have qualities such as love,compassion,understanding,kindness, etc etc. But we also carry within us a fallen nature that is bound to sin, and a tendency to do what's incorrect than to do what is right. Is there such a thing as a human born without a conscience?
    But the Bible tells us that everyone is born with a conscience and that the law is written in our hearts. (Romans 2:15) but we also know that if an individual keeps on his wrongdoing and doesn't repent, it sears their conscience (1 Timothy 4:2Ephesians 4:18-19) in other horrifying cases a reprobate mind which sounds worse. One person I find interesting is a Russian serial killer named Andrei Chikatilo I believe he is a prime example of being made due to the harsh realities around him.

    Andrei Chikitilo had killed 53 people which were women, and young victims which included young boys and girls. I'm taken aback as to how this man could had slept at night without his conscience biting at him throughout his life, but I suppose the answer lies if we go back and see what went wrong.. A child's environment and the way we are raised play a pinnacle role on how a person turns out to be. This reminds me of the verse where bring up a child in a way he or she should go and he/she will not depart from it. If you look at his childhood( if you can call it one) it was filled with death, war, hunger, humiliation, and little love. He was born during the time of communism, and lived in a village in Ukraine, poverty strangling his family where all were entangled within a one room hut. Quite sadly his mother would verbually and physically abuse him, and his father was drafted and taken prisoner by the German forces so his dad was pretty much out of the picture. Not only that he was bullied when he had gone to school( his sister would recall times when he would be crying) Also He witnessed as I mentioned before, death such as bombings, shootings and fires due to the Nazi occupation of Ukraine at the time. He was impotent as well... So growing up in all this, I think would devastate a child's mind and break a person completely. Not to sound crazy, but despite what he did I do feel pity for him. His early childhood years only make me think on how love is such a important factor and plays an important role on how a human being turns out. It just shows we need love to grow as a human being, if love is not present within the heart, hatred will abide and pollute the soul. The individual will only grow up as a broken human being reflecting the twisted environment he or she was raised in. I have a few questions regarding him, was he just destined to go the path he did why would God create someone who had seemed to be doomed from the start? Would Chikatilo have turned out differently if he had grown in a loving environment? Despite committing all these horrible crimes, do you think he was beyond saving or could he have come to repentance and been saved? It's just quite tragic that this world can be a breeding ground for broken souls and in response, these broken souls break other souls.
     
  2. Baptist Brother

    Baptist Brother Active Member

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    Like most serial killers and child molesters, Andrei Chikitilo was a homosexual. Wikipedia states that he had difficulty performing with girls and that he molested people of both sexes.

    I think everyone is born evil. The difference between Chikitilo and the next guy is mostly environment and opportunity, which led him down this path.

    Not long ago, most Americans had a strong negative opinion of homosexuality. But, with just a single decade of propaganda and media exposure to homosexual relations in the media, the repulsiveness of homosexual acts has been replaced with majority support of homosexual marriage. Killing and rape would be the same, after the first couple times, it's no longer feels so repulsive.
     
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  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We inherit sin and death.
    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    We come into the world as sinners.
    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    We are unaware of our condition until God reveals it
    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    HankD
     
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  4. Neonap

    Neonap New Member
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    I don't know if I agree that all of them would be homosexuals, every individual is unique and struggles with sin. Some kill due to jealousy, envy, lust, hatred, some self righteous motive etc etc. I think due to his horrific background and impotence, his heart grew dark with anger and hatred. Over time, lust kicked in and set him off the edge. Demonic activity could have also been manipulating his mind, and since the soviet union didn't want to do anything with religion, that also could of been a factor. He did at one point, did want help and sought to seek professional help but he got discouraged when he saw a police officer I think. Imagine if he had went to a church, and little by little God could have broken through his heart and through his mercy and Grace, Chikatilo could have repented.Due to his upbringing and environment, he became a broken twisted human being unfortunately.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I didn't really see Baptist Brother saying that all would be homosexuals, but just making a point which is without question true: propaganda has turned the tide concerning how most view homosexuality, to the point where you're the oddball if you view it as depraved.

    Here is my take on the OP: all men and women are born with one fundamental flaw...they are born separated by God. I do not take the view that men are born inherently evil, as in, someone was destined to be a serial murderer because of his make-up, but rather that men commit evil because they lack the One that can cause them to do that which is right (Ezekiel 36:27). So I take the view that the surroundings and upbringing of men and women directly impact, not if they are going to commit evil, but, how severe that evil is. A child being brought up in the admonition of the Lord stands a far greater chance of being taught to do that which is righteous (and I am speaking of temporal righteousness, rather than the righteousness which is by faith in Christ) than the child that grows up in a godless environment (1 Corinthians 7:14).

    And welcome to the forum, Neonap. I pray your time here will be blessed and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.


    God bless.
     
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  6. Baptist Brother

    Baptist Brother Active Member

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    Sexual serial killers rarely limit themselves to females. And, this man wasn't impotent, he just wasn't turned on by females.

    That's my argument. Most people go through life only pretending to be good. Circumstances can bring out their dark side. <cough> the whole Democrat party </cough>

    Look at the Left playing the race card, and a whole deck of cards, to victimize others while pretending to have the moral high ground. That is evil.
     
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  7. Neonap

    Neonap New Member
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    I misinterpreted what he had said, but it's true.. Tell people that homosexuality is wrong, they will flip the tables and try to tell you how much of a bigot you are.. But that's what happens when this country has tried to remove God from their lives, for example taking prayers out of school. What's wrong is being accepted and considered right and correct but what's moral and correct is viewed as old fashioned and uncorrect. I agree, that's why he turned out so depraved and twisted. I believe that's why Jesus said regarding children bring up a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it. Children are vulnerable to the Devils attacks, and their environment can mold them to the person they turn out to be. Regarding the case with Andrei, he became twisted and sick because the environment he grew up in was exactly that.
     
  8. Neonap

    Neonap New Member
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    Could be, or there could be other factors as to what made him impotent. I agree with you on that one, people tell me " Well I didn't kill anyone so I'm better than that lowlife who took the lives of 54 or so people." Thing is, would you be able to say that if you were Andrei? I'm sure you probably would have turned out messed up as he was, especially if you grew up in a loveless environment with a parent who showed you no love. Or better yet, when someone says I would murder the person who hurt one of my own. Understandable, but you are a murderer in God's eyes even if you think your action was justified. We are to forgive and love our enemies not hold hatred and smite them. Everyone is capable of commiting a crime, just a push like you said. To believe your of a higher moral ground than everyone else, is to miss and understand the fact that your a fallen sinful human being.
     
  9. beckywc

    beckywc New Member

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    I think our understanding of the word is wrong, we think a person is evil when they've committed some heinous act. But the definition of the word is to be wicked, immoral, etc. We all have been born at enmity with God, that means at the very time we took breath into our lungs we were estranged from God.

    Jesus told Nicodemous that no one will see the kingdom of heaven, unless they are born again. Being a sinner is missing the mark, we have all missed the mark. Yes, we are born evil and with the propensity to commit evil.

    No one wants to think of themselves as being evil, we make excuses for our actions or behaviors, we call small lies "white lies". No one has to teach us to do evil, it comes naturally. A toddler isn't taught to throw a tantrum when he/she doesn't get their way, it just come naturally to them. Paul calls it our "sin nature".
     
    #9 beckywc, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  10. Baptist Brother

    Baptist Brother Active Member

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    As a little thought project, I've thought about the good people and bad people I know, and concluded that their environment explains a lot about how good they appear. Consider if a wealthy wife raised in a good home was born in the ghetto and sexually abused. When you're considering that, consider how productive that wife is vs. the miserable jobs the ghetto version might try to hold. Or, consider if this sexual serial killer was born in modern America to a middle-class family. In my thought project, I find that most people are not so good, after all.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We all are born witha sin nature, that wants to rebell against God and seek to have its own way and will be done, but when people do really evil acts, that is the sin nature going unchecked full out, and there are many factors involved at that stage, heriditary, culture, habits, beliefs, environmnt, conditioning etc!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of us are sinners by birth and choice, so we would be lost state, but those who commit evil acts are going past just that state!
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The distinction I would make is that we are sinners by birth, not sinners...at birth.

    The infant is not, because he/she descends from Adam, immediately sinning the moment he/she enters the world, or in the womb for that matter. It is because they are separated from God, through Whom anything righteous attributed to man comes, that they will, when they grow up...sin.

    But I challenge anyone to lay a charge of sin to the newborn, or the infant in the womb, even. Just not going to be able to do that. That is why so many treat sin as though it is a disease inherited by all men, thus making man without proper responsibility for the actions he/she takes. I do not take that view.

    And when a child is brought up in the admonition of the Lord they stand a far greater chance of coming into obedience with the will of God than those who grow up without being raised in the way they should go.

    Now, to take this to the next logical conclusion, shall we then say that babes in the womb, or infants, or young children, should they die before sin can be attributed to them...go to Heaven? We still have their state of separation from God to deal with, right? But if you consider that not one of the Old Testament Saints went to Heaven, nor were they eternally redeemed, then you begin to understand that children that die receive the same grace the Old Testament Saints did. So while we can view them as "saved," we do not confuse that with being born again.

    So in other words, when those who die (who have not sinned in the physical body) who have not been born again (in this Age), they do not have an issue of sin that confronts them, but an issue of separation from God. And it is my belief that the grace and mercy of God is sufficient that He embraces those who die who have not sinned.


    God bless.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Babies/Infants are all born into Original Sin state, are self willed from the start, but God would not be judging them for their sins, as Jesus provided grace to cover them, so still guilty of being in Adam sinners, but saved by the Cross!
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Feb 18, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Hi Darrell, you haven't supplied one verse of scripture for your view.

    If we are not sinners at birth then what is your interpretation of

    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    If it is not a condition which we inherit then what is the meaning of

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That would mean tha we were right with God until we intentionally sinned.....
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Are individuals born evil or made that way?

    We are all made sinners at conception. We are not only in a sinful condition (separated from God because we were made sinners) but we are corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin. So much for our nature as children of wrath.

    But scripture also teaches nurture affects our condition. We, as parents are admonished to train up our children, to not spare the rod, and to guard our hearts. We can harden our hearts with the practice of sin. Satan, the world and our fleshly desires all entice us away from the paths of righteousness presented in scripture.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Now all you need is Scripture to verify that.


    God bless.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not only have I supplied verses in this thread, but have supplied numerous passages over the course of time on this forum. Here are some passages for you to consider:




    If you would care to comment on these verses and the context they are given in let me know.



    It fits within the general scheme of a fallen world. There is no question that children will, if they live...grow up to sin. That does not mean that we look at the infant in the womb and say "You sinner!" lol

    What charge would you lay against the babe in the womb?

    Consider:


    Luke 1:13-16

    King James Version (KJV)


    13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.


    14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.


    15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.


    16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.



    The same thing being spoken of here about John is the same thing David cries out for, the intervention of the Spirit of God that he not sin. David states men will be converted, and by the power of the Holy Ghost John converted many men (in an Old Testament sense, of course).




    All men will die because they will sin, but, that does not equate to "inheriting sin."

    As I said from the beginning, the primary problem man faces is not sin, it is an absence of relationship with God which keeps men from sinning. John is an exception to the rule, in that John's life served a prophetic purpose.

    The babe that dies in the womb is not separated from God by sin, that is the state they are conceived in, so that is already a concluded matter. So, when the babe dies before they have the mental capacity to willfully transgress the will of God, it is my belief that they will receive the same grace shown to the Old Testament Saints, who also died not having been eternally redeemed.



    God bless.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    They are conceived in sin. It's a paradox, they are born dead in trespasses and sin

    Romans 5:12

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    All the verbs are aorist tense
    sin entered the world
    death passed upon all men
    all sinned

    These things were simultaneous.
    When Adam sinned we all sinned including our precious babes as both sin and death was "passed" down to them the moment Adam sinned.


    John the Baptist was a special case



    It is my belief that infants not having wilful sin but inherited sin only are regenerated by God upon an untimely death.

    A young apple tree is an apple tree even before it ever bears fruit.
    A baby rattle snake is born with venom.

    We are born sinners, the children of Adam.

    HankD
     
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