Are Non-Christians Saved?

But as the statement of the Church's postion made clear, Roman Catholics consider all Christians to be part of the Catholic (although not the Roman Catholic) church. So do all Protestants who speak of the Holy Catholic (not just Roman Catholic ) Church. Here is the official Roman Catholic position on the salvation of non-Catholics:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm

As you see, I was quite careful. Those who assert that the Roman Catholic Church says that non-Catholics cannot be saved, is indeed spreading false witness. As you see, those who believe and deny are lost, but as the statement says, those who follow the commands of their conscience and seek God sincerely are not lost.

This is the doctrine the Church believes and teaches, direct from the Vatican. If it disappoints you to know we think you are also afforded salvation, you might want to meditate on why that is so. If there are any who will say "I don't care what the RC says, I know they really don't believe it," then they are invincibly ignorant and we must leave them to their fixation.

 

No you weren't careful.
1. "Those who assert that the RCC says that non-Catholics cannot be saved."
--You say that this is a false assertioin; yet the quotes given you from the documents of Vatican II and others that can be gleaned from the Catholic Encycopedia, papal bulls, Council of Trent, and plenty of other Catholic literature says differently.

2. "Those who believer and deny are lost."
Are you referring to me? I once believed in the RCC. But then I found Christ. Now I am born again of the Spirit of God. I have left the apostate RCC. I no longer believe in its heretical doctrines. Therefore according to your statement I ma lost. Correct? I once believed in the RCC; and now I deny it.

3. "Those who follow the commands fo their conscience and seek God sincerely are not lost."
--Do you deny the veracity of the words of Jesus in John 14:6

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That third statement is much like "Mother Theresa" said: (I'm paraphrasing)--"Whatever religion you are: If you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim; If you are a Hindu be a good Hindu; if you are a Christian, be a good Christian," etc. Is this Christianity? It goes directly contrary to the words of Jesus. Thus the Catholic church is teaching that the Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Jainist, etc., will all be saved even though they adamantly deny that Christ is God. What heresy!!

No, You weren't careful at all.

 

Galatian, like DHK, I am a born again Christian, a follower of Christ.
And I absolutely and totally reject the Roman Catholic Church.
Are you telling me I am hell bound or heaven bound?

 

No, they don't. As you learned the Church's stated postion is that those who are not Roman Catholics can be saved. None of the other quotes say otherwise. I'm puzzled why it is so dreadfully important to you to prove that Catholics think you are going to hell. It's a bizarre fixation, one that is directly contradicted by the Roman Catholic Church itself.

If you still believe as Roman Catholics believe, and deny your faith, you are lost. But the Church says that even a nonChristian:

...may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

And notice that the Roman Catholic Church considers you a Christian.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

Very bluntly and plainly. Why would you continue to insist otherwise?

I'm pleased that you found God wherever it happened. But I'm sad that you don't love God as much as you hate Catholics.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That is why we believe that one who sincerely seeks God and follows his conscience is saved. That is all He asks of us. If we are for any reason unable to know the complete truth, God can still save us.

Yep. And it demonstrates yet again that Catholics do not condemn non-Catholics to hell. Indeed, we think Jesus was right when He said it was better to be a decent and God-seeking Samaritan than to be a theologically correct Levite who did not have those virtues.

See above. Your error is to suppose that your particular denomination has God in a box. He is bigger than any church.

Nope. Orthodox Christian believe. Christians have always known that God can save anyone, even those who don't know about Him.

And now you know different. I trust you will now cease your false witness, since you've conceded that Catholics do not say non-Catholics are not saved.

 

We approve.

We approve.

As you learned, we still think you can get to heaven if you are sincere and seek God in the way your conscience tells you. He cares what's in your heart, not what club you belong to.

At this point, it's entirely up to you. You are not at increased risk of damnation if you are a sincere Baptist. As you see, that is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

And I'm very glad of that. Prickly as you are, I kinda like you, Helen.

 

We realize that the RCC has become very ecumenical in recent years, but that is vastly different than teaching a doctrine of universalism, which you have just expressed. Never before have I met a Catholic who believes in the doctrine of universalism. Some universalists also believe that Satan will go to heaven. It only makes sense because the Hindus who worship idols (sincerely) are worshiping the demons behind those idols. So in effect they are worshiping Satan's emisarries, and yet you say they will be going to heaven as well, according to your previous post.

 

Perhaps you don't know what "universalism" means. Since Jesus Himself said that we should rather emulate a person in religious error who has God's will in his heart, rather than one who is not in error who does not, then by your standards, Jesus is guilty of universalism.

(Does anyone see the humor in the fact that this fellow first frantically tried to show that Roman Catholics say that all non-Catholics are lost, and now is frantically trying to show that Roman Catholics think all are saved?)

I never have either. But I never met one who denied that even non-Christians can be saved.

Some people think the earth is flat. You need to deal with the ideas presented here, not those you wish I had presented.

There are no demons behind the idols. They are just stone and wood, with no power beyond that which human imagination gives them. Try to stay grounded in reality for a bit.

Luke 10:36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

So Jesus said to emulate a heretic who acted with God's love in him, rather than a Levite who did not. Surely, He was not telling them something that would condemn them to hell.

When you understand the spirit of Jesus' command to his listeners, you will understand why all men who sincerely seek Him can be saved.

 

"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God."
Jesus never condoned error, and condemned those that were in religious error, and those that followed it.
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
--This is emulation of a person in religious error?

How about this?
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
--Read the rest of the chapter as well. He denouces these religious people with language so strong that it is akin to cursing them.

What did Paul say:
Acts 13:10 and said, O full of all guile and all villany, thou son of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
--Why didn't he just emulate him instead?

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 10:7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

There is only one door; Jesus is that door to heaven. There is no other way to heaven but through Jesus. Jesus himself said that anyone else who claims to go to heaven through another way, another religion is a thief and robber.

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
Either Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and all other religions are false, or he is the biggest fraud, liar, and fake that ever lived. Which do you choose?

 

amity,

bmerr here. Doesn't "Total Depravity" impute Adam's sin to all of mankind through a "sin nature"? I may not have a good understanding of it.

I've heard of Pelagius, but I'm not familiar with what he taught. Obviously one could not obey the gospel if they had not heard it. One cannot obey the truth unless he has been taught the truth.

I'd say that one's obedience to the gospel is evidence of their belief in the message, but their salvation would be affected by their obedience, would it not? Failure to obey the gospel will result in Christ taking vengeance in flaming fire when He returns (2 Thes 1:7-9).

Again, if the gospel is never heard, it will be because it was not preached, for whatever reason.

Back to the point though, if a sinful nature keeps one from doing anything but sinning, how would that be different from being guilty of Adam's sin? And what was his excuse? He seems to have sinned at the first opportunity...

In Christ,

bmerr

 

You added "religion" to make His words fit your own desires. He never said that. In fact, Jesus overtly told His listeners to emulate a Samaritan, rather than a Levite. You don't approve, because it bothers you that people of other faiths might find salvation. That's not what God wants you to want. He is unwilling that any be lost to Him.

You seem to be conflicted over whether you want to claim that Roman Catholics think only Roman Catholics are saved, or whether you want to claim that we think everyone is saved. In fact, both are false claims.

None are saved without Jesus, but no denomination owns Jesus. He can and will save any person who sincerely seeks Him, wrong or not.

 

Jesus was using a parable to teach a lesson of love and compassion. In John 10 he uses another parable to stay away from false teachers and calls them thieves and robbers. He is the only way. There is no other way. Yet you say that those in other religions are saved. That is heresy.

 

Barbarian observes:
You added "religion" to make His words fit your own
desires. He never said that. In fact, Jesus overtly told
His listeners to emulate a Samaritan, rather than a
Levite. You don't approve, because it bothers you that
people of other faiths might find salvation. That's not
what God wants you to want. He is unwilling that any be
lost to Him.

You seem to be conflicted over whether you want to
claim that Roman Catholics think only Roman Catholics
are saved, or whether you want to claim that we think
everyone is saved. In fact, both are false claims.
None are saved without Jesus, but no denomination
owns Jesus. He can and will save any person who
sincerely seeks Him, wrong or not.

More than that, he was saying that it was better to have
love and compassion than to be theologically correct.
That's why he told His listeners to be more like the
Samaritan than the Levite. A lot of people, from a
superficial reading of the parable, think the message is
only "it's good to be charitable." That is not even the
primary message.

And yet He commends the Samaritan instead of the Jew.
He chose a Samaritan, precisely because Jews saw
them as despicable heretics. When you understand
why, there will no longer be a conflict between these two
verses for you.

Indeed. But all who earnestly seek him can be saved,
even if they are mistaken about Him.

They can be. God can save any person, Christian or
not.

That is Christianity. Denying God the power to save
any person, that is heresy.

 

First, I never added religion. That was the context in which you used it, and in which the source that you quoted from used it. Correct? People from all religions or faiths can be saved (and still remain in their own religion). In other words there are saved Muslims, saved Hindus, saved Buddhists, saved Jainists, etc. This is the stand of the RCC. This is the position you took. True?
And BTW, yes, it is universalism.

#1. The fact is that the teaching of the RCC is and has been throughout the centuries that only Catholics can be saved. Documentation has already been given to you on that point. You just refuse it. Rejection of the truth will not help you.

#2. You stated that people in other religions are saved to. Do you want me to go back and quote you word for word. I will. People in other religions, such as Islam cannot be saved because their religion is anti-Christ. IT is a demon-inspired religion in direct oppostion to Christ. Unless the person converts from Islam to Christianity he cannot be saved. You cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. You cannot be a "saved Muslim." That would be a damnable heresy. To say that Allah can save and get one to heaven is blasphemous heresy. And yet your catechism teaches as much.

Biblical Christianity alone "owns" Jesus, so to speak. We have the truth, and are commanded to go with the truth of the Word and carry out the Great Commission. The World Religions do not "own" Jesus. They have never heard of him. Many Muslims think that if he is the Son of God then he was born of a physical sexual union. Even the Mormons believe that Christ was a created being. The Hindus treat him just as one of many gods. Biblical Christianity alone has the Truth.

Jesus never said that at all. One needs to be theologically correct as well as have love. You cannot dispense one without the other. There are many religions--all theologically wrong. Jesus said--Beware of the leaven (theology or doctrine) of the Pharisees. He never condoned false doctrine. He never put love above doctrine. He said that you needed to have both. He stressed the importance of believing on HIM not Allah.

This was one of many parables. Each parable has one central teaching. The teaching of this parable was in answer to the question "Who is my neighbor.?" Jesus answered the question by giving this parable. The wider context was the second greatest command: "Love thy neighbor as thyself." However, in no way does he do away with other doctrine.

The Jew was not saved either. There is no difference between an unsaved Jew and an unsaved Samaritan. They botrh need Christ. The object of the parable was to show love, and to answer "who is my neighbor," not to point out differences of doctrine. You sound very confused.

Yes, he chose a Samaritan because the Jews despised them, not because of the difference in doctrine. Jesus never put love above doctrine. They are both important. You are very confused. He did not choose the Samaritan because he was a heretic, but because of the attitude of the Jews toward them. That attitude came because of their heritage. Their Jewish lineage had become compromised. They were more like a hybrid. They were despised. The Pharisees and the Saducees got along, but the theological differences between them were great. Theology was not the issue here.

They cannot be saved and hold on to their religion at the same time as you imply. You cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time, even as your Catechism states. There is no such thing as a saved Muslim.

He can only save those who are willing to forsake their sinful ways, their old religion, the religion that is anti-Christ--as most world religions are.

God is able to save any person. But any person that demands to remain in their religion cannot be saved. A Muslim must change. He must come out of Islam or he cannot be saved. It is impossible. You cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. You believe in heresy.

 

Do you have scripture for that?

"Allah" is the Arabic word for God. The God we worship is "Allah" in Arabic. Arabic speaking Christians, including protestants, also worship "Allah." So perhaps we had better be careful of such statements lest WE commit heresy!

This is alarming. First of all, Christ owns all of His creation! We do not OWN Christ in the sense that you mean. Where does the Bible says that we can only be saved by theological correctness? In fact didn't Christ say of the Samaritans "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

 

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

My statement was:
"Unless the person converts from Islam to Christianity he cannot be saved."

Jesus said that other religious leader were thieves and robbers. He said that He was the only way to Heaven. There is no other way to heaven, which would include Islam. Either Jesus is the only way to heaven and Christianity alone has the only truth about the way to heaven (the gospel), or Jesus Christ is the biggest liar and fraud that ever existed in this world. Which one do you choose?

That may be true about the Arabic name of Allah, but we all know that that is not what the Muslims mean by the word Allah. It is the same way with the English word "god." The "God" of the Bible is not the same as the "god" of the Mormons, the Hindus, the J.W.'s, the Branch Davidians, etc. They worship another god, not the God of the Bible. The word god is the same: "God" but that doesn't mean we worship the same "God." And the same is true in the Arabic language. Islam worships a demon-inspired caricature of God, one who is cruel, capricious, fatalistic, and very impersonal--totally unlike the God of the Bible.

Christ is the Creator--True. He is the only creator--not Allah, not Buddha, not Vishnu, not Ram, not Guru Nanak, not Confucius, not any other god. Christ alone is the Creator. Christ alone is The Truth. He said "I am truth." There is no truth apart from Christ. Theological correctness does not come apart from the truth that is revealed about Jesus Christ in His Word that He has given to us. What Christ said to the Samaritan in the statement that you quoted in modern English may be said this way: "You don't know what you are talking about," or "you know nothing!" It was a rebuke. Christ the Creator knew all. He is omniscient. The women didn't know anything about true worship.

Christ gave us the truth, revealed it to us in the Bible, and commanded us in the Great Commission, to take that truth and preach it to every creature in the world. We alone have the truth. Our obligation is to do something about it.

 

I 'choose' another way, where I cannot guess whom Christ will save. Christ can save people who are never blessed to hear His name, as most people who ever lived certainly have not. I believe it because I understand that is what is taught in the Bible.

Our God is exactly Who Muslims mean by "Allah."

Read more about Islam.

And yet the Jews did, according to Christ. Those who can never be saved according to what you say...

And where we fail, Christ does not. He can reveal Himself to whom He will.

 

If you understand the Bible show me a way of salvation that is outside of Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You can choose another way other than Christ, but it will be the way of death. Christ alone is way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him. You have but one choice--to believe the Bible in this issue or not. Thus far you have not offered anything of what you think the Bible teaches. I give you the truth--Jesus saves. That is the truth. However, Jesus ALONE saves. No one else can save as you seem to think. There is no other way but through Christ. You call yourself a Baptist? I am surprised.
Tell me, Did Christ lie when he said:

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
--Christ claimed to be the door, the entrance to heaven. In the same chapter he said that any one going in any other way was a thief and a robber. Was he lying?

Does our God order His children to hijack airliners and run them into hi-rise towers killing thousands? Does our God command us to kill and destroy in His name those who say anything against His name? Does our God give life sentences and death sentences to those who say anything against the name of His Prophet? (They do in Muslim nations under Sharia Law)

You are badly deceived if you beleive that Allah and the Lord God of the Bible are the same God. They are diametrically opposed to each other.

That is one thing that you need to do. FYI, I am a missionary serving Islamic nations. I know quite a bit about their religion, cultures, nations, etc. I have lived in a nation that was under both Sharia Law and matial law at the same time. A fundamentalist religious dictatorship, dictated by the cruel zealots of Islam. Their God himself is cruel and fatalistic. He is not the caring personal loving God of Christianity who is interested in every care of the individual. He is a far off, aloof. It is anathema for a Muslim to even think of bringing Allah down to an earthly level and calling him "Father." To them it is blasphemy. God cannot be so personal. He is an impersonal God. You need to learn more about Islam. It is a demon-inspired religion. In fact Mohammed himself was convinced that his visions were from Satan. He was convinced otherwise by his wife (a Jewess), named Khadija. And thus Islam was born.

The Jews had the truth, but rejected it. The Messiah came to Israel, and they rejected him and crucified him. We have the choice to reject the truth. It is not forced upon us. But one can only be saved according to that truth--the truth of the gospel. There is no other way; no other truth.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Salvation is never outside of Christ--Never!

In Mat.28:18-20 Jesus appeared to 11 men. He left the future of the world in their hands. He told them to take the message of the gospel into all the world and preach it to all men, and then to baptized them, and then teach them all things that Christ had taught them.
Eleven Men--The whole known world at that time. That was their mission.
He did not give that command to angels, or any other spirit beings.
He did not promise that He would accomplish it through special dreams and visions.
He gave it to just eleven men. What if they failed? He had no back up plan. That was it. It was his only plan. There was no plan B.

To this day Christ has no Plan B. He has but one plan--Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There is only one method of salvation and that is through the name of Christ. If you don't like what the Bible teaches take it up with the one who wrote the Bible; I am but the messenger. Christ claimed to be the way--the only way. There is no salvation outside of Him. There is no method of getting his message out, outside of His children whom he has commanded to go with the gospel. Take it up with Christ. Are His words true or not? You decide.

 

There is no way outside of Christ. But there IS a way outside of facile "decisionism."

I wouldn't be if thought the Catholic-bashing, Muslim-bashing, and Jew-bashing that has gone on here was representative of baptists.

Hate mongering is not worthy of the name of Christ you bear. Will you be pleased when a million people or more (for whom Christ died) perish in the war you are helping to foment?

I just came across a quote I think is apropos: "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- Henry Louis Mencken

Wrong.

Your utter contempt for people convinces me you are no asset there. Please go somewhere where you can love and serve the people better and stop tormenting yourself.

You are right about that.

His are, yours aren't.

It is late. I don't want to wallow in your cesspool of hatred. If I have time this weekend I will try to come up with an answer, but I have little motivation, frankly. I don't think anything anyone could say could make much indentation in your armour. You have shut your own eyes and ears quite willingly and tightly.



BUT GOD does have a people out of every nation, kindred, and tongue.

 

My statement was:
Salvation is never outside of Christ--Never!

And by your statement above you whole-heartedly agreed.
However, Islam teaches that for Christ to be deity is blasphemy and can never be such. Salvation comes through the prophet Mohammed, and by doing good works. It comes by keeping the five pillars of the faith. And in the end a Muslim never knows for sure because Islam is fatalistic. When the time comes to stand before Allah, it is all up to Allah in the end no matter how many good works you have done. If Allah is in a good mood he may allow you into paradise, if not, then it is too bad for you. It is all up to Allah. It is in his hands. It is fate. That makes Allah capricious and cruel casting some into hell and allowing some into paradise all on a whim of his own choosing. There is no possible way for a Muslim to have any assurance of salvation, or any way for him to have any method of forgiveness of sins.
The Muslim denies that Christ died and rose again.
The entire religon is diametrically opposed to Biblically Christianity.

Thus if you agree that salvation is never outside of Christ;
how in the same breath can you say that it is inside of Islam?
It is an impossibility!