are their ANY Historical premillinualists here On BB?

your going to have to explain that commentary! Are you saying those who politically & militarily support Israels policies are a deterrent to Americans? Im not a Dispy or a Covenant supporter yet I always have had a proclivity to support Israels right to exist....as well as Polands & the Czech Republic & Slovakia. These countries serve as a bulkwork against Soviet & Arab domination.

 

We're off topic.

Google Genesis 12:3 and the Christian Zionist

 

To reiterate, so-called "historic premillennialists" use "historic" to distinguish themselves from dispensational premillennialists. It is not at all referring to historicism.

KY, thank you for directing me to Kim Riddlebarger in post 14. Here Riddlebarger identifies the OP group as futurist rather than historicist (or preterist or idealist):

 

Think about it Jerome, doesn't matter whether you're dispy, historicist, or historic, if you've got premillennial in your title then that automatically puts you in the futurist category......

 

That is why I could never be in the historic premill camp. I believe that when Jesus returns, He will gather us and take us home to heaven, and the lost will be cast into the LoF. This earth will melt with fervent heat, and the heavens will roll up like a giant scroll, and pass away with a great noise.

 

And passages such as 1 Cor 15:23,24 seem to support that....

 

Then how do you explain the "new heaven and the new earth"?

And what about the Earth being 'restored' like unto the Garden of Eden?

And what about the "New Jeruselum"?

I believe that the Bible teaches us that God's will in the beginning....Genesis 1....will be fulfilled. He intended to fellowship with, and preside over man on Earth, but man messed it up. After the final battle, when Satan is locked up forever, I believe that man will still live on the Earth, and that the Earth will be restored as it was when Adam and Eve were here. And, I believe that the saints...us who are Christians, will reside in the "New Jeruselum" which will also be here on the Earth.

God will eventually have His paradise, and will dwell with man on Earth. Earth will be "restored", not destroyed.

Would you like to see the many scriptures that back up my beliefs?

John

 

it's always interesting reading a thread around here and realizing that few people replying actually know what they're talking about.

As someone who is a (informed) historical premillenialist, let me begin by stating that part of my interpretive matrix is acknowledged utlization of progressive dispensationalism (though I don't think it matters as much as others.) The Church and Israel are two different entites, though obliging some of the same promises. One of the key aspects is to make the difference between spiritual Israel and political Israel. The two are separate.

That said, the historical premillenialist position (rightly noted to be chiliast) is a futurist eschatology that denies a pre-Tribulation rapture of the Church, though the Church is "raptured" prior at the Second Coming of Christ which ushers in the millenial kingdom. There are many variations within the camp.

For instance: I don't accept a seven year Tribulation, a singular anti-Christ, and take much of Revelation to be symbolism. Others disagree with me, I'm okay with that.

So, let's not get outside of what historic premillenialism actually posits theologically. I hope this helps.

 

So long as they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior...yes, there are plans for Jewish people.

The Nation of Israel (political) has no special place in the End Times work.

That's what I said above.

There is no definite span of time which would be considered "great tribulation" at any era. (BTW, again notice my progressive dispensational framework as it relates to the notion of differing "dispensations" or "eras")

 

John, this is how I see it, too. I wouldn't build a doctrine around this one verse, but I think it tells us something:
Rev 21:3

Notice that it didn't say the dwelling place of men is with God. I may be making too much of this verse, but to me it means that the present earth will be destroyed, then restored, and this will be our eternal dwelling place.

 

i do agree with you as far as it being destroyed as we know it. The Earth we know will be gone, but it will be restored, not blown up, contrary to popular belief.

John

 

How Does Historic Premillennialism Differ from Dispensational Premillennialism?

"There are three major beliefs that I believe separate HP from all forms of DP:

First, historic premillennialists believe in New Testament priority in which the New Testament interprets/reinterprets the OT. As the leading HP proponent, George Ladd has stated:

The Old Testament must be interpreted by the New Testament. In principle it is quite possible that the prophecies addressed originally to literal Israel describing physical blessings have their fulfillment exclusively in the spiritual blessings enjoyed by the church. It is also possible that the Old Testament expectation of a kingdom on earth could be reinterpreted by the New Testament altogether of blessings in the spiritual realm.[1]

No dispensationalist would affirm this statement of Ladd since all dispensationalists reject the hermeneutic of “reinterpretation” and affirm that the meaning of all passages in the Bible is found in the authorial intent of all the Bible authors, including those of the OT. Dispensationalists reject the hermeneutic of reinterpretation because they don’t believe that New Testament passages override or transcend the meaning of earlier passages of Scripture.

Second, historic premillennialists believe the church is the new Israel. Ladd asserted that the church is now the new “spiritual Israel.”[2] Millard Erickson, too, holds that the church is the new Israel: “To sum up then: the church is the new Israel. It occupies the place in the new covenant that Israel occupied in the old.” [3]

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, do not see the church as replacing or fulfilling national Israel. They assert that all references to “Israel” in the New Testament are references to ethnic Jews or believing ethnic Jews (see Gal. 6:16).

Third, unlike dispensationalists, historic premillennialists do not believe in a future restoration of national Israel. Historic premillennialists like George Ladd have affirmed a salvation of ethnic Israel but this salvation is viewed as incorporation into the Church. This salvation is different from the concept of restoration in which Israel is saved as a national entity with a role to play to other nations in the future. Thus, historic premillennialists often believe in a salvation of Israel but not a restoration of national Israel.

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, believe in both a salvation and restoration of national Israel. Israel is saved and then restored to a position of prominence and service to the other nations on the earth. The coming millennium is also a time when God will fulfill all aspects of the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New covenants with Israel and the nations."

 

"...... the early church father Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165), a premillennialist and Gentile, wrote of Christianity: "Even we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."[10] This is a clear denial of the Israel/Church dichotomy so important to Dispensationalism."

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Sect1.htm

 

Youse learnin me!:thumbs:

 

And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26:19

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28:23

Do you believe the disobedient Jews of today live in a literal world of a literal heaven and earth of literal brass and iron?

What hinders you from seeing that if one is in Christ that one is a new creature of the new heaven and earth of the new covenant?

 

I don't know.

Perhaps someone like Iconoclast who is up on CT can step in and enlighten you, or, you can always google it. It's right at your fingertips.