1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Are There Any Verses That Show Predestination to Hell?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Steven Yeadon, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Simple question, are there any verses you can point to that say any people are predestined to hell?

    Single predestination is clear enough from scripture. At least some, if not all, people who believe are chosen for heaven through predestination. However, to my knowledge there appears not a single verse points to a double destination.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    473
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No.
    But there is a verse in Revelation, like Revelation 17:8 that can be interpreted to teach such, ". . . whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, . . ." Being interpreted to have never been written in the book of life, so there is no name not to be blotted out (Revelation 3:5) to keep the name from never being blotted out. Those whose name is not in the book of life perish in the lake of fire, Revelation 20:15.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,154
    Likes Received:
    2,312
    Faith:
    Baptist
    all of us are destined for Hell due to the fall of Adam, but God did not directly determine us to get there!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,154
    Likes Received:
    2,312
    Faith:
    Baptist
    https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/Double-Predestination.pdf
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    19,105
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some would take Romans 9:22 as such a verse.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for a very honest answer. I find I cannot argue there is limited single predestination. Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and others. Given the scriptures I know on unlimited atonement and God's desire to save all, though, double predestination is a bridge too far. A 4 point Calvinist is Arminian at heart.
     
  7. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I haven't because of the broader context of Romans 9-11.

    Thank you for an honest answer. I find I cannot argue there is limited single predestination. Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and others. Given the scriptures I know on unlimited atonement and God's desire to save all, though, double predestination is a bridge too far. A 4 point Calvinist is Arminian at heart.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    19,105
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe in "double predestination" but for different reasons. I also would not use Romans as a proof text (and I think that was not Paul's point).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you. To be honest, if it wasn't for the scriptures that show God wants all saved, Calvinism is the truth IMO. The problem has been the Holy Spirit always leads me back to Ezekiel and Lamentations and others with deep conviction whenever I begin down the path to being Reformed in my theology. I have almost become reformed around half a dozen times, but my conscience and how I read those scriptures stops me every time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    19,105
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree with predestination and double predestination while I disagree about Calvinism (I believe it a serious error). I also believe we, being human, will always have a variety of understanding.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,154
    Likes Received:
    2,312
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you see God directly determine that all sinners go to hell, as he caused that, as directly determine their destiny same way did the saved?
     
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    167
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The bible doesn't say any one is predestined to be saved let alone predestined for hell . Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)
     
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    167
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why Ezekiel?
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    19,105
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes.
     
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2020
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    167
    Faith:
    Baptist
    only if you interpret it to say ' before ' ( instead of from ) the foundation of the world
     
  16. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Lamentations show God as wanting repentance rather than wrath. Ezekiel 33:11 among others come to mind. These books also show God as a reluctant Tormentor. Lamentations 3:33 come to mind. The character of Yahweh revealed in these books forbids double predestination. Why would God go against His character? The revelation in the New Testament cannot directly contradict the Old Testament. Scripture is scripture.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    9,523
    Likes Received:
    1,692
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes and no. A true Calvinist embraces double predestination. If there are only two options, Heaven and Hell then any verse that supports single predestination to heaven conversely supports double predestination.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,154
    Likes Received:
    2,312
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So that would make you in the high Calvinism camp!
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,154
    Likes Received:
    2,312
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not really, as many Calvinists do not argue for God equally determining the destiny of the saved and the lost!
     
  20. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    9,523
    Likes Received:
    1,692
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Many watered down Calvinists. True Calvinists whose views align with Calvin and the early followers embrace double.
     
Loading...