Are these saying true?

Wthout sin........

BBob,

 

Do you have scripture for that. I find where Jesus said, except you become as a little children, you shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven. He never said just as one particular child but all "little children".

Mat 18:3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Never once mentioned a wretched, covetous old sinner. Where did you get your information??

I wonder if this might cause some mother, who is on the edge, to actually go over it and kill her child, being a Christian just told her that the little brat was a wretched, covetous old sinner, you just brought another one into the world, just to cause troube for the rest of us.


BBob,

 

Bob, take it in context.
It is in NO WAY saying a child is innocent!
A child is full of faith, they will believe whatever they are told. If you will notice the passage states to be converted (which is only by repenting) and become as little childen (a direct reference to faith - coming to Jesus) or you will not enter heaven.

Yet a child is STILL in need of a savior, or do you believe they go to heaven of their own righteousness. IOW - Did Christ indeed die for all men or only some?

And if He did die for ALL men, what is the purpose for dieing for the innocent who have no need for a Savior?

 

See Alan's response.

I think there's more a chance of that in the doctrine that all children are saved and immediately whisked into the arms of the Father upon death.

 

I do take it in context and that is who is worthy of seeing the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't believe a child can go to heaven on its own righteous. I believe it still takes the blood to conquer over death and the grave.

I absolutely do not believe infants and children go to hell, unless they have reached the age of accountabilty and sin.

Allan; you are getting real close to Calvinist on this issue.

BBob,

 

Well, Jesus and I don't think so. I see you didn't give scripture showing an infant is wretched, covetous old sinner.

BBob,

 

All have sinned . . .

But you say NOT all have sinned.

 

You ever read in the scripture where the preaching was to little children??

 

I believe babies and young children are under the protection of God until they reach the age of accountibility and I don't think God would send anyone to hell for something they were not accountable for in the first place.

He speaks several times in the Bible about how precious children are and even told his diciples not to forbid the children to come unto him.

The Catholics believe a baby is born in sin and will go to hell if they are not baptized.

I had no idea Baptists believed babies would not go to Heaven.

That's a new one on me and I can't see how anyone could believe that after careful reading of the Scripture.

I believe that humans are born knowing that they need someone to fill the void that is their spirit. So in a sense, babies believe because they are too innocent not to.

When they reach the age of accountability, then they make a choice in who to believe in.

Why would God send a baby to eternal damnation after making this statement...

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

 

Seems to me if the Bible was written for our learning:

2Ti 3:16All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Again, these scriptures are not to infants.

 

If God is the God of all Mercies, and God is love, and if each of us is fearfully and wonderfully made, it would seem to me that God sees a future for us with Him from the moment we are conceived. He has not made us to condemn us.

love,

Sopranette

 

No one here, that I know of is saying babies go to hell when they die.

What we are saying is they need the savior just like we do. They are not innocent therefore righteous since they are corrupt and fallen in their nature (what is called a sin nature) and nothing that is not perfect can DWELL with God. Our sin nature whether infants or adults stands in direct conflict with the Holy God and therefore it is needful that Christ died on their behalf as much as He did on ours.

Thus the contention being discussed is that a person is a sinner by nature not because they sin but because it is who they are already - corrupt and fallen.

Therefore sin is the manifestion of who they are by nature as the child grows to an age where they are able to express themselves for what they are. Sin procedes FROM their corrupt/fallen/sin nature. That is why we must train up a child in righteous, train them to do what is good and right. Why, because they inherently do that which is wrong ON THEIR OWN.

If a child were left to itself and no training given whatsoever, how many children would grow up to be good righteous men? Not one.

Why not? It is their nature revealing itself AS IT IS. We don't have to train a child to do wrong but to do that which is lawful and right.

A child is created/born contrary to the Nature of God and is why scripture states "we are BY NATURE children of wrath". We are born at odds with the Holiness and righteousness of God, an enemy for THAT very reason. They have done no sinful act YET, but their very nature is the sourse from which that action will flow when they CAN do as they will. If they were born able they would do it from birth. However a child has no purposeful sin to answer for since they have done nothing as of yet, but they themselves (who they are) corrupt and fallen is ALL that is needed for God to judge them worthy of Hell. YET, if it was not for Christ THEY WOULD BE! They need Christ as their saviour as MUCH as we need Him for ours. Children are no more worthy of Heaven outside of the death of Christ than Hitler or Pharoah of Old because they are no different in spirit than they were.

We are ALL formed in the womb seperated from God. Thus the passage in Eze 18 about being 'estranged FROM womb', or out of the womb. Estranged means to be a stranger and the person with whom the passage is dealing is being estranged FROM is God. We are stranger toward God from the womb with regard for and toward our nature.

Thus Children need Christ as their savior BECAUSE they are not innocent otherwise they would have no need for a Savior and could go to heaven on and of their own merit. Therefore Christ did not have to die for all much less all who go to Heaven. (whichever theological bent you want to take)

 

Scripture states that ALL are condemned in Adam.

Yes, He has a purpose but that does not negate the fact that all are born under condemnation. It is for that reason Christ came, that Gods purpose might stand for those who will believe. And those who don't will still fulfill His purpose in a different yet still glorifying way unto Himself

 

This is just another run of the mill Calvinism vs Arminianism debate, and more evidence that the two doctrines are incompatible and cannot peacefully coexist.

The schism is fundamental going even to the nature of man and of the Atonement.

 

No, because they were in Adam's loins, just as Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham, because he was in Abraham's loins.