Are traditional seminaries useless?

Every Church should be a mini-seminary. Learn how to do it at the traditional seminary and then bring it home to your local congregation tailored by your congregation's need and by your vision for your church.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I grew spiritually while in seminary proportionate to the amount of my own desire to grow spiritually. The semesters where I was only concerned with a grade, I did not. The semesters where I was seeking to grow in both intellect and spiritual maturity, attending chapel services reguarly, fellowship with other seminarians, etc., I did grow spiritually.

I would argue that "success" in mininistry, as you put it, is NOT measured by ones intellectual ability. Success in seminary, however, is. I suppose a professor could give a New Testament student a high grade for being very sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit or for having a dynamic prayer life, but that probably wouldn't be much incentive for the studnet to learn about the New Testament.

More and more seminaries are recognizing the same perceived deficiency, however, and are honestly trying to do something about it. Several schools have added "spiritual formation" groups that entering students assigned to and the groups are given faculty "mentors." Their purpose is NOT to discuss Greek noun declensions or the identity of "Q" but to help students process what they're learning in class and integrate that into their faith journey.

So, no, I personally don't think that seminaries as a rule are becoming irrelevant. Some might never recognize or try to compensate for the imbalance of which you speak. But others are, and do. If your current school is that dry, you might look into a different seminary before you write them all off in one fell swoop.

 

Well put, RandR.

I have not gone to seminary, but have done numerous independant (and accredited) studies. I'm about to embark upon a diploma course with Seminary Extension. I have found over the years that schooling at my own pace has been very rewarding, giving me opportunity to learn, to minister, while yet making a living and providing for my family.

Speaking of seminary extension, there is at least one other on this BBS enrolled. J_Barner...where are you, and how are you finding the study?

 

By the time I went to seminary I was so discouraged with all I had "learned" in the local church. I had so many questions from my personal study and going by the theology I had been taughtand the the books I was told to read. When I would ask my pastor some serious questions, he often had no answers. He had gone to very reputable Bible school. But he had bought into the theology that they taught. But I challenged some of his theology by asking many questions and trying to fit together what he taught. Neither he nor I could fit it together. Now I know why. But I didn't then.

When I went to seminary it answereed so many questions and showed me the direction I had been taken by teaching that did not teach the Bible in its historical context.

I had studied dispensationalism and raad many books by Larkin, SCofield and Chafer. But I came up with so many unanswered questions. I got to the point where I was so frustrated that I quit reading the Bible for quite some time. Finally, I began to pray and ask God for wisdom. Then I heard a sermon in another church and it made a huge difference. Seminary showed me the mistakes of the dispensationalism. A close friend of mine who was a Ph.D. student at a major dispensational seminary told me that the majority of younger professors believe very little of what the older professors do. Kind of intersting isn't it?

While I was in seminary I had access to the library which is one of the largest theological libraries in the US. So I was able to read many books about what I struggled with. I waa able to meet with professors and ask them about their beliefs. Many times they would tell me in private things they would not say in a classroom. If they had said some of those them in a classroom there may not have been time to properly discuss those things.

 

No, they are not useless by any means, but they are going through adaptations like all schools of higher education. I definitely believe that mail order ministry education is a joke. There must be interaction with other minds, voices and even ideas for true education to take place. The internet has altered education on all levels and the education community as a whole is still wrestling with and judging its relevance.
I went to seminary when it was still education and not indoctrination. One must at least be exposed to differing ideas and must be challenged to grow. I know too many Christians and Ministers who only believe what one pastor/professor has "taught" them and have never internalized their education/belief.
After having seminary students work for me, I also see a need for internships or a blending of ministry and coursework. So many students now come straight from college with NO church/ministry experience then get their seminary degree and fall and fail in ministry. Some major areas of weakness in all theological education I feel is in the area of counseling and budget planning.

 

Maybe a different seminary would have been beneficial. Seminary is what pushed me over the edge with dispensationalism. Before going to seminary, I had been taught all the stuff about dispensationalism that most people think it is ... arminian, two ways of salvation, etc. But when I went to seminary and was forced into the text, I realized that dispensationalism was the only consistent way to interpret the Bible. I realized that two ways of salvation was not dispensationalism but merely foolish false doctrine. I realized that arminianism was not required. In short, seminary showed me the problems with all the alternatives because it was a seminary that insisted on exegesis of Scripture.

I think seminary is indispensable. It is an absolute must for men who want to be in ministry.

 

In Chafer’s systematic theology he talks about two types of salvation– one for the Israel and another for those who believe (Systematic Theology Vol. 3 Soteriology pages 105-108). Are not those who are saved the church? Yet Chafer seems to indicate that they are not a part of the church. They are different. They are Israel.

I read Chafer’s systematic theology 17 years before I went to seminary and had many questions then that went unanswered. So I saw the problems long before I went to seminary.

At the center of dispensationalism is seventeenth century German rationalism that was popularized in the English speaking world through Scottish Common Sense Realism.

The major flaw in dispensationalism is that everything is filtered through the theological system rather than drawing your theology from the historical context of the scripture. When they conflict the true dispensationalist will go back to the filter again. The dispensationalist uses the scripture not to establish his belief system from the Bible but “properly” read through this filter system of dispensationalism only serves to confirm his already established beliefs. Thus dispensationalism becomes the standard rather than the Bible.

Progressive dispensationalists have thrown out much of the old hard line dispensationalism. The filter has been changed because it was not a sufficient filter. So it was changed some. But during that time the Bible has not changed nor its historical context. But by changing their dispensational view they have admitted that it had flaws.

Spurgeon called the early dispensationalism “Darbyism.” Sometime read the book Genesis To Deuteronomy by C.H. Mackintosh. It will clearly show how early dispensationalists interpreted scripture. No one today would interpret scripture like that.

If anyone has gone to a dispensational school recently they will notice that most of the hard line dispensationalism is gone. For someone to not have read Chafer’s systematic theology is to say that they have not studied the heart of dispensational theology.

I have a close friend who was a Ph.D. student at DTS and once I told him that it seems that we agree on most everything and that I don’t hear him say much of what the older dispensationalists believe. He told me that most of the younger professors do not believe much of what the older professors do. Kind of even shows you what the younger professors think of the older dispensational theology.

Progressive dispensationalism has changed the original dispensationalism of J.N. Darby, Scofield and Larkin.

 

I think Seminaries are good and would encourage any young preacher called into the ministry to attend to get a theological education. I do not however think that seminaries are an absolute must for men who want to be in ministry. Not every man can attend and some of the best pastors and preachers I have known never attended seminary. Seminaries do not make a person a minister nor does a degree mean you have a education.

Personaly I Think there needs to be a better way such as maybe mentorship rather than seminaries. In the OT we see the School of the Prophets, with Eli and Samuel, Elijah and Elisha and maybe Samuel and Nathan. A young preacher taught and mentored by a veteran pastor who he could serve with seems more in line with scripture. I think saying seminaries are an absolute must for men who want to be in ministry implies seminary educated preachers are more qualified to pastor than non seminary educated preachers. Some of the smartest preachers I know have never attended seminary and some of the most heretical preachers I know of have a wall full of degrees.

Once again I encourage preachers to attend seminary but I do not think I am more qualified to pastor than one who hasn't attended. To say it is a must implies superiority of seminary preachers over non seminary preachers and has a hint of BIG Preacher LITTLE Preacher.

[ July 09, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Needless to say, I disagree with virtually everything you wrote. I think you don't understand the basics of dispensationalism, but rather the caricature that so many try to espouse. As I say, a good dispensational seminary would have put much of that to bed. It is a shame that you abandoned it so easily. But back to the topic of the thread ...

 

Needless to say, I disagree with virtually everything you wrote. I think you don't understand the basics of dispensationalism, but rather the caricature that so many try to espouse. As I say, a good dispensational seminary would have put much of that to bed. It is a shame that you abandoned it so easily. I don't see how you can say that dispensationalism is a filter in anyway. I can make a much more convincing case about non-dispensationalist approaches, using Scripture as evidence for it. Chafer wrote a systematic theology about what some dispensationalists believe. But it is not dispensationalism. The only dispensationally distinct doctrines are ecclesiology, eschatology, and to some degree pneumatology. There is no dispensational soteriology. Not understand what Chafer did and what dispensationalism is causes you to carry some unneeded baggage to the topic. I seriously wish these caricatures and misunderstandings would cease. A good dispensational seminary would have answered all of those questions. This is why I say that seminary is necessary. You abandoned dispensationalism becuase of a lack of proper teaching about it. Many of those espousing dispensationalism suffer from the same problems that you manifest. Chafer did not write for all dispensationalists and certainly not for dispensationalism. Covenant theology has many internal squabbles and intramural problems that manifest great problems for their view. Good seminary education will enlighten as to these things and equip one to make better decisions. In the end, it all comes down to exegesis.

But back to the topic of the thread ...

 

You are assuming that because I don't buy into dispensational theology that I am a covenant theologian. I am not.

Good exegesis begin with understanding the historical context. A. T. Robertson was a big proponent of this.

I am sure you realize that dispensational theology has gone through a metamorphosis in the past three decades.

I would agree with a lot of what dispendsationalists believe today but not at all with those of the past.

But I guess when we get it perfect, we will see Jesus face to face. But until then we must study and share our faith and make disciples.

I have seldom ever seen anyone stray far from sound doctrine who was sharing their faith with non-believers.

Non-believers can often see through the nonsense of fruitless religion. I have seen many who have gone to a rigid legalistic church and then throw it away when they leave home. They never got a dose of real religion as James speaks about.

But I would look for a seminary that will make you work hard academically and make you work hard to learn practical ministry.

At one point in time you must stop being led and start leading. I think the ideal is when you begin leading and are led by someone who is more mature.

A good seminary wil not give you all the answers and tell you what to believe just so you can spit out the work someone has done or reinforce the theology of someone else. It will give you tools so that you can study and learn well the things God has for those who study hard. A good seminary will also give practical help toward ministry not just tell you.

Look at Jesus and what He did. He didn't sit down in front of a bunch of men and teach them. He took them out to do ministry as well.

 

I agree with virtually everything you said in this post. I think the practical leadership is a necessity but it is never learned in teh classroom. It must be learned in life.

 

USN... I am here and have actually been busy studying for a final exam. Also had VBS and Children's ministry issues to take care of. Seminary Extension is great for a person who works full time, is interning and has a family. I can schedule my class time very flexibly. The materials are according to my pastor as tough as he was when he taught classes. It is imperative to have access to guided ministry experience. No matter where you get your academic training. Academic and practical experience are both indispensible. As a man who was called later (36 years old) in life, the most logical educational choice for me was Seminary Extension. (www.seminaryextension.org) Of course I am blessed by having a pastor with over 50 years experience who is willing to mentor me.