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Arminianism & Calvinism issue to split over?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Mikey, Aug 2, 2018.

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  1. Mikey

    Mikey Active Member

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    Why is the Arminianism/Calvinism debate so heated? I've seen numerous videos/articles of even Pastors from the Arminian side calling Calvinism evil or satanic. (i'm sure this happens the other way around too). Using such language just brings animosity and division between fellow Christian brothers and sisters. It is fine to disagree, but this goes beyond this.

    Both Arminianism and Calvinism Believe that;
    1) Only some shall be saved, others will be justly punished
    2) Salvation only comes from Grace through Faith
    3)Saved only through Jesus death and resurrection.

    Do you think that this is an issue that a church/denomination should split over?
     
    #1 Mikey, Aug 2, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    No.
     
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  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No. That we are in Christ is much more important than how we got there.

    But haters will always hate (on both sides). When somebody calls my understanding of soteriology "evil" I only hear hate. Never a bible reasons for such a vile accusation.

    And when I hear somebody call "traditionalists" equally invalid names, I still see a lack of any bible support.

    But, haters are going to hate. That is part of the fallen nature of mankind.
     
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  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Agreed. I see nothing any more offensive in one belief than the other. How is it any more "evil" to not unconditionally elect than it is to give free will to one who will never hear The Gospel and have no opportunity to respond?

    Your hangup is being called "evil." Mine is being condescended and called "ignorant."
     
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  5. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    This indeed is a complex issue. Jesus did say,

    "A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another. Jn13:35

    While a struggle rages on between Calvinists and Arminianism the forgotten aspect I think can be....the WORLD is watching. When they see Group A can't get along with Group B are either side portraying the loving, gracious character of the God they claim to serve? One may even have right theologies....but are they showing forth the right spirit which is equally important to manifest. And can one know about God...and not KNOW God?


    That's a scary thing as well. People embrace with much tenacity a theological construct whatever it is and defend it to the death....and still....not KNOW God. Defending a faith or way of reasoning can become a mere game with really having no consideration of LOVE towards another individual. We're exhorted in 2 Tim 2:26 about times when seeking to instruct those who are differing

    " He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth" 2 Timothy 2:26

    If we really care about truly wanting to see a person come more fully into a truth what are we going to be? Gentle....or at least seek to be. None of us are perfect however but that most certainly should be our goal that is to not win a case of reasoning for the purpose of vain glory. Such is not edifying nor showing love to anyone, but stands merely as a manifestation of pride.

    Yes there are things that need to be challenged...there's always things that need to be addressed but I think with much diplomacy should be our manner. There have been times not even necessary on this web site but others I would use terms of endearment calling groups "the dear brothers" and I'd get the come back that I'm being condescending for saying dear.....or then I'd say in passing "Mr friend have look at this or that" and they'd come back and state I'm not their friend.

    There are times one seeks to create civility but others won't have any part of it. I think it is to the Lord that they'll have to answer to that not even that they might not have a wrong doctrine....but most certainly a wrong spirit. One thing I do believe the Lord impressed in my heart not with an audible voice but just the general feeling in our spirit that God is impressing something upon us.

    The thought came to me...let's say there's 4 Christians....2 Armenian types and 2 Calvinists.....1 Arminian type and 1 of the Calvinists don't waste their time just always talking about theology but actually really do seek to share the gospel with the lost on the regular bases. The other Armenians and Calvinists do not but are like the Priest running down the road to the next debate! Who is God pleased with. The one Arminian type Christian and Calvinist who do. They're like the Good Samaritan really trying to help people while the other two can merely be caught up in a fleshly game. This really gave me pause for thought.
     
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  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Can we disagree in a Christian way?... Sure we can but you have to understand that there are all kinds of personalities on this board... Sometimes our personalities get in the way of doctrine and how we understand scripture... If we are honest we disagree sometimes with those in our own camp and churches... I've seen it in my 50 years walking with the Lord and have been guilty of the same and there are a lot of brethren on here preachers included that can relate the same... To me and some of the other old duffers that have been here awhile, we understand the problem... For the newbies the only thing I can say is, hold on to your hat... There are worse sites I'm told... You would be surprised at what churches split over and its not just doctrine?... Welcome to the BB... Brother Glen:)
     
    #6 tyndale1946, Aug 2, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Mikey,
    After 40 years as a believer, I'm still learning.

    Glen is helping me. :Whistling
    He's being patient, and I'm being hard-headed. It's what I do in the flesh, and I imagine many others are that way as well.
    I'm also still trying to get a handle on what exactly a false teacher looks like ( there are easy ones, and some not so easy ), so in reality, it may take awhile. But I think I have a good handle on it...maybe.

    I started out "Arminian" in 1978, and now I'm a full, "five point Calvinist" in 2018.

    I've watched people who have never departed from "Arminianism" and seem to have the fruits of the Spirit...I've seen "Calvinists" who don't seem to have, at least as much ( that's another subject ). I recently met a man who is at my plant on a temporary assignment, who came to Christ out of Catholicism...he's different than I am, has a lot of background that's more in Evangelical circles, and has a love for Jesus Christ that I rarely see in anyone; and, while he does not object to "Calvinism", he's not as passionate about doctrine as I am; But he definitely loves the Lord more than anything else in the world.

    I wish I had faith like his. :)
    I have a lot more than I did even 10 years ago, but I don't look like him.
    Perhaps someday I will, and I can tell you this: If I ever "get there" it will be God's work, not mine.


    One thing I can tell you from all of this:

    " And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
    16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."


    It takes time and effort in God's word and help from others in the faith...and there will be arguments on the way. The believers at Corinth were a mess, and the Galatians were following a false gospel. We're a wreck on the outside, and our spirit has been changed to desire the Lord and His ways on the inside.

    That's our flesh, and when we're free of it, then we will know Him as we are known of Him.


    And we will know each other without all the baggage of this life.


    Do I think that the issue of "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" is worth splitting over?
    I'd be lying if I said, "no". However, what I'm coming to find is that there are people I once thought were deceived that haven't been standing still while I was away from my Baptist church...for example, my own mother has kept up her reading, and now she's starting to see the same things I did 15 years ago.

    So, I may very well find myself back in church with people I was once convinced would throw me out if I ever spoke about what I see in Scripture...but that day hasn't come yet.


    May God bless you, sir.
     
    #7 Dave G, Aug 2, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    There is a huge difference between being ignorant and being evil.

    I am ignorant of many things. The areas of knowledge I find to be interesting I try to be as informed as possible, but in those other areas I admit I am largely ignorant.

    What I am not, is evil. Nor is the Sovereignty of God evil. Nor are the canons of dort evil.

    A person who is ignorant can remedy that ignorance through study. Evil is a whole different order of magnitude.
     
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  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Assuming I knew every aspect and nuance of Classical Arminianism. Assume I knew every word of every text ever written on the subject. Most Calvinists would still call me ignorant due to the fact I was not a Calvinist. No amount of learning would be sufficient because I am not a Calvinist.

    For the record, I do not consider you evil. I don't consider Calvinism evil. I don't consider the double predestination of high Calvinism as evil. I do however get annoyed by the young millitent Calvinists who are either in Seminary or recently graduated. All they want to do is push Calvinism, most of the time on people who don't want to hear it. One of them was talking to me and a retired pastor not long ago. Jabbering on and on about it. The old man finally said "You can't tell me anything I don't already know about Calvinism. Just shut up because we are trying to talk about the kids and the game." The kids were playing wiffle ball.
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Being entirely conversant in Arminianism does not guarantee you are entirely conversant in Particular Redemption.
     
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    See Mikey?

    It's a personality thing. ;)
     
  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying that if a person knows enough about Calvinism, they will embrace it? Is it possible to reject Calvinism and not be considered ignorant by Calvinists? I think Arminius was far from Ignorant on "Calvinism," yet he did not embrace it.
     
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Not that this has anything to do with the people here on this forum, but from my perspective, the Catholic Church "embraced it" so much, they pronounced it anathema at the Council of Trent.
    Then in 1572, thousands of Huguenots ( Calvinists ) were killed all across France on St. Bartholomew's Day...all by people who hated what they saw as heresy.

    After reading about this and other atrocities, I get the distinct impression that many who name the name of Christ not only hate the "doctrines of grace", but will also go to great lengths to make that hatred known. To this day the bad treatment, vilification and maligning spews from YouTube, internet articles and blogs...one of which I was banned for, for even questioning one of their owner's inordinate treatment of it.

    Many things happened during the "Protestant Reformation", some on both sides, most on one side...but I can tell you one thing the Bible states:

    " A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." ( John 13:35 )



    True believers love one another...so...
    Where's the love?
    Good question...but all of it does make me sit up and take notice, that what I believe is so hated by some as to put me out on the fringe of most professing believers.

    And to me, most of it is coming from the "Arminian" side, and I've also experienced it first-hand.

    I once visited a "Sovereign Grace" Baptist chruch near me, whose pastor told me that the church I was converted in, "hated" them.

    I wasn't surprised.




    So it's not all about personality...there's a lot of history behind the "debate", and there's some other things I've discovered along the way which I will not mention at this time.
     
    #13 Dave G, Aug 2, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Where in the world did you get that? I never said any such thing. It is a complete non-sequitur.

    Of course.

    Once again, check the dates. James Arminius died in 1609, 10 years before the publication of the Canons of the Synod of Dort.
     
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  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but he understood the concept. Calvinobviously did all his teaching prior to 1564. My information may be wrong, but one of my Arminian Theology books plainly states that much of J. Arminius teaching was done in response to teaching from Calvin and his contemporaries. It went on to state that he only had minor disagreement with Calvin's. doctrine. The major disagreements happened generations later among their followers.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This should not be an issue that causes a Church or individuals to split apart on, as there are Christians found in both camps. The thing that Jesus stated to us was that we would not be known due to our grwat theologies, but for our love for each other. Paul further redefined the Christian life was to be judged by how much fruit was being produced in us by the Holy Spirit.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The problem is that there are many who seem to want to demonize Calvinism, as they state that even the theology itself was evil and demonic. Most who are calvinists would normally view those holding to Arm theology as being inconsistent on their theology in some regards, or maybe ignorant, but not as the some arms view cals!
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That is exactly backwards. The Canons of Dort were a response to the Remonstrance, not the other way around.
     
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  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Yes we know, calvinists are big victims.
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Who (other than you) has claimed "Calvinists" are "big victims?"
     
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