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Arminians and Sovereignty

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Sep 29, 2010.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You are right Psalms. The elect will come to Jesus. Coming to Jesus is proof that you are the elect. Jesus said, "All that my father giveth to me SHALL COME TO ME..."
    If you can come to Christ, come! He will in no wise cast you out!

    If you are hungry he is bread!
    If you are thirsty, he is living water!

    You might say, "I'm not hungry." Then I am not talking to you.
     
    #61 Luke2427, Oct 1, 2010
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You don;t know beans about them if you think that. Just several posts up I quoted Jonathan Edwards saying JUST THAT. He is considered by religious and secular scholars alike to be the greatest religious mind in AMerican history.

    You just called one of the greats a blasphemer. Now who's arrogant and rude?


    Edwards said:
    As I have said on this thread- Evil is a necessary evil.

    God does not love sin- he hates it. But he decreed it so that his holiness might shine forth the brightest against sin's dark backdrop. He, while hating sin itself, desired the existence of it, so that by it he might show forth the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:7).
     
    #62 Luke2427, Oct 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2010
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    I have to see by scripture who the Father gives to His Son. If He is going to hide the truth from the wise and learned as the scripture say's and this is His good pleasure.

    Since that is true these scripture shows who He will give to His Son or keep.

    Zephaniah 3:
    12 But I will leave within you
    the meek and humble,
    who trust in the name of the LORD.

    Proverbs 3:
    5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;

    6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths ]

    7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.

    Isaiah 28:16
    So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

    Romans 930What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
    "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall,
    and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

    Since trust in the Lord is not work you can't say anyone who enters that way has earned their salvation. Following a crowd does not mean you are are drawn by the Father.The Father is going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the Lord and they are the one's who are going to come and and the Father will keep them.
     
    #63 psalms109:31, Oct 1, 2010
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Who are the meek and humble psalms?? Who are they? Are they unregenerate people?

    Are there unregenerate people who seek after God?

    Of course not. The meek and humble, those who seek after God are those who the Father draws. No man lost in his sins is meek and humble. None of them seek after God. God has to regenerate them before they are meek and humble and before they seek after God.

    These verses teach Calvinism when in their proper perspective.
     
    #64 Luke2427, Oct 1, 2010
  5. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Hope

    All men are unregenerated until they hear the words of JEsus. His word is Spirit and life. His word is what regenerates us to believe or not to believe . When we deny the word of Christ we lose the Spirit and life and no longer regenerated. I also believe in the elect the way you do,but I also believe God has included with them those who hear the gospel of their salvation having believed
     
    #65 psalms109:31, Oct 1, 2010
  6. Cypress

    Cypress New Member

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    Got news for you Luke. It's where truth leads both views.
     
    #66 Cypress, Oct 2, 2010
  7. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    This debate is akin to asking, "is Jesus a man or is He God?" the answer is yes. I accept the omnipotence of God and my freedom to exercise the choice to accept or reject Him. He created us with a will & with the ability chose Life or death. If God chooses who will be with Him according to His will, then all of humanity will be in Heaven. He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance", but not all will come to repentance; therefore, all who are in hell will be there against His will. "For God so LOVED the WORLD (kosmos)..." I do not have to understand the coexistence of His sovereignty & my free will in order to accept it.
     
    #67 michael-acts17:11, Oct 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2010
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    100% wrong.

    This is post-modern gibberish and cannot be tolerated. Salvation is the work of God in the heart of His elect. ONLY they are so gifted and regenerated to be capable of repentance and faith. And not one of them will be lost.

    The onus is NOT on His Word that regenerates (and if we deny it later we lose that regeneration - how evil a teaching is that??) but His holy Spirit that regenerates, saves and keeps.

    If any part of that was up to man, we'd be talking "works salvation".

    I have a dear friend who gave proof with word and deed over decades of the saving grace of Jesus. He now has had his mind affected (he's in a locked ward so cannot get out) and in a nursing home. He does not pray, read the bible, sing a hymn. Can cuss like he did in early life in the military, and does not know who Jesus even is.

    He hasn't "lost" something that God did for him. He's lost the cognizance of it in an Alzheimer brain. But salvation does NOT depend on me do or believing or saying or anything. It depends on God regenerating the heart and keeping him for heaven.
     
    #68 Dr. Bob, Oct 2, 2010
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    1 John 2:
    Warning Against Antichrists
    18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

    20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

    24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life    .

    How can we go back to the person we once was knowing what Christ done for us. His word changes us. If we can walk away we were never His in the First place. The truth hurts, but the world needs to hear it.
    This is what called God me to do and i will do it, because it is His word not mine

    Hebrews 3:
    Warning Against Unbelief
    7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    8do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the desert,
    9where your fathers tested and tried me
    and for forty years saw what I did.
    10That is why I was angry with that generation,
    and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.'
    11So I declared on oath in my anger,
    'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

    12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.     15As has just been said:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

    16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

    I will not put in anything i say encouraging men it's OK not to believe, because it isn't God's will for anyone who is His.
     
    #69 psalms109:31, Oct 2, 2010
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Serenity Prayer

    God grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    the courage to change the things I can;
    and the wisdom to know the difference.

    Living one day at a time;
    Enjoying one moment at a time;
    Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
    Taking, as He did, this sinful world
    as it is, not as I would have it;
    Trusting that He will make all things right
    if I surrender to His Will;
    That I may be reasonably happy in this life
    and supremely happy with Him
    Forever in the next.
    Amen.

    ~ Reinhold Niebuhr
     
    #70 psalms109:31, Oct 2, 2010
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I don't know what this means.
     
    #71 Luke2427, Oct 2, 2010
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Exactly. Now you are starting to make a good Calvinist. Just think your statement above through to its logical end and you will develope a consistent theology.
     
    #72 Luke2427, Oct 2, 2010
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    What argument are you making here?
     
    #73 Luke2427, Oct 3, 2010
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You think God desiring for sin to exist makes God a sinner. That is not so. Sin is necessary that God might be praised to the fullest degree possible.

    God decreed sin, even Theissen the non-calvinistic theologian, said this.

    God decreed sin so that:

    1. He might be praised to the fullest degree possible.

    2. We, the Redeemed, might attain unto the highest possible happiness.

    Can you imagine a heaven where, throughout the endless ages of eternity, Jesus Christ is never praised once for grace? Never one song is sung to him for his love displayed in the shedding of his own blood? Yet this would be the eternal state of heaven had sin never existed.

    He would not get the fullest glory without the existence of sin nor would we experience the fullest degree of happiness without sin.

    Praise God for his decree that sin should exist!
     
    #74 Luke2427, Oct 3, 2010
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Luke, then with your "perception/interpretation" of who God is and how he operates, means that a young 12 year old girl kidnapped in Cambodia and sold into sexual slavery in Somalia to be there until men grow tired of her and discard her like a piece of trash is part of the "designed and specific" plan of God for her and all of creation?
     
    #75 quantumfaith, Oct 3, 2010
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    What is the alternative, QF? That it had no purpose? That her life and all of her suffering was just a tragic, cosmic waste? Hadn't you rather believe that things happen for a reason. That many times the reasons are reserved exclusively for the secret counsels of God, but that he has a purpose and plan and will and end for all things, for all events- especially those tragic ones?
     
    #76 Luke2427, Oct 3, 2010
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Sorry Luke, my "perception/interpretation" of who God is and how He operates does not include such, but rather, He can use the evil hearts, intentions and actions of man, to reveal to mankind the power of His love, hesed and forgiveness for those who through their "brokenness", pain and hurt care to look for the God of creation.

    I will "freely" admit, because of the simple fact that I am finite and fallible, that I could be completely wrong, but nothing in the revelation of God, scripture or creation points me to a God who does what I seem to think you say about him.
     
    #77 quantumfaith, Oct 3, 2010
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    But Scripture DOES say God works this way. It says so emphatically.

    God worketh ALL things after the council of his own will.

    Read Genesis 50:20 Joseph said, "You thought evil against me but God meant it unto good..."
    They thought evil.. but God MEANT it. It was in the eternal councils of God that they would do what they did to Joseph. God always meant for them to commit these sins. God used it all for good.

    The alternative is that things happen out of God's control. That God has to come in afte they happen and work them out. Nobody wants to live in that kind of world.
     
    #78 Luke2427, Oct 3, 2010
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Not exactly, that is what you SAY (interpret).
     
    #79 quantumfaith, Oct 3, 2010
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No brother. that is what the text says.

    They did it for evil but God MEANT IT for good.

    This is the way of all wicked men and all their deeds. They do them for evil but god means those deeds for some good and glorious purpose.

    What a consolation to the victims of terrible deeds. What happened to you was not some random act but God purposed it for a great a glorious purpose.

    And is not the suffering of man a small price to pay for the glory of God?
     
    #80 Luke2427, Oct 3, 2010
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