Featured Arrogance or Contending for the Truth?

Those three are false teachers we hammer in the forum I am an admin in. I cannot believe anyone listens to those clowns. The worst is Kenneth Copeland, Robert Tilton, and Bennie Hinn.

 

That makes sense from your point of view. QF!

 

No the church is Christ's bride. At the same time, I do not believe in replacement theology, which says the church replaces Israel. Neither extreme is Scriptural. I am no fan of Israel, but God will continue to use them as He sees fit as He works His purpose out.

 

Well said. I believe that Copeland may be the worst of all. Joel Osteen is of the same ILK!

 

Similar here. The biggest sticking points for me were:

What are we to do with those who are/were neither Israel or the Church? OT Gentile believers, specifically. Noah, Enoch, Rahab, et al.

Also, 1Peter 2:21 says plainly that believers were called for the very purpose of suffering; that Jesus suffered, leaving us an example to follow. A PreTrib rapture would remove believers from the very thing they were called for - suffering for the cause of Christ

The problems just kept adding up

 

It makes sense from a proper understanding of physics, science and thermodynamics. Being an engineer, I know you had Cal based physics, maybe even some "modern physics". Please don't be a creation event denier.

 

Perhaps just leaving the rapture out of the equation all together might be a better place to start. The ECF almost all were "Chiliasts" or Millennialists. The disciples asked the Lord just before his ascension: "Wilt thou at this time establish your "kingdom"? Jesus gave them a tender rebuke telling them that the time of the kingdom was not for them to know. But the kingdom would come. It was a promise. So was his coming, as John prayed at the very end of the book of Revelation.
I don't understand how anyone can be less than pre-millennial. Leaving the tribulation and rapture out of the equation, there is a second coming (one of the fundamentals of our faith), and there is a coming kingdom--a doctrine that has a solid basis of belief for centuries if not a couple of millennia.
Just my opinion.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbs:

 

And all this time I thought you were the book distributer for the WV district of Hal Lindsey and Joel Osteen.

 

You're one funny guy....

 

And all this time I thought you were really Dusty Rhodes --son of a plumber.

 

Nope you got me all wrong. I am a skin diver for Roto Rooter.

 

You know better than that. I am just not an old earth/creation person. Neither am I a big bang type person. The more it is studied the more problems are found.

I believe the first thing God created was Light. I once saw a statement by Nobel Winner Dr. Charles Townes, a native of Greenville, SC and a Furman Graduate, where he quoted that passage in response to a question. He was an old earth/creation type but from what I have read a very devout Christian. He died January 28 at the age of 99 in California! A very remarkable man!

 

I believe in the young earth theory. I take the Creation account literally. I have just come to that conclusion in the last ten years.

 

You should read Baptist History. There were no Rapture Ready Baptists until Darby came along!

Historic Baptist Views

Throughout history Baptist have generally believed that the return of Jesus Christ will be followed immediately by a resurrection of all the dead, both the ‘redeemed’ and the ‘lost’, and a general judgment. This conclusion is based on information presented in Baptist Confessions of Faith by William L. Lumpkin. [Only one Confession, that of the Baptist Bible Union of 1923, presents a view other than a general resurrection and judgment.] Not all of the confessions in the book included statements about the Second Coming. Those that do are identified and the pertinent statements are presented in the following paragraphs. These statements are presented without comment regarding other aspects of doctrine. Also, Scripture references that provide a basis for the statements are omitted.

In some confessions the statements regarding a general judgment are more specific than those regarding a general resurrection. It is obvious from reading the various confessions that the question of a general resurrection and judgment versus multiple resurrections and judgments were neither dominant nor divisive issues among the earlier Baptist churches. Rather the primary issues regarded the person of Jesus Christ, the meaning of election, the extent and nature of the atonement, the mode and subjects for baptism, proper worship, and the involvement of Christians in the world government. It follows that since Baptists historically believed in a general resurrection and judgment they did not believe in an earthly millennial kingdom, they were either amillennialists or postmillennialists.

Anabaptist Confessions

The following confessions [1 & 2] are by Anabaptist groups residing in Holland[]. While not all Anabaptist groups practiced immersion[], they did reject infant baptism insisting that the Scriptures teach that only believers are to be baptized. The Mennonite and Amish groups have roots in the Anabaptist movement.

1. The Waterland Confession of 1580 or 1581 [Anabaptist]

Article XL -- Of Christ’s Return, Of The Resurrection Of The Dead, And Of The Last Judgment. [page 65]

“Lastly, we believe and teach that Jesus Christ, our glorious King and Lord, visibly just as he ascended, will return from heaven with power and great glory, and with Him all the holy angels, that He may be glorified in His saints and may be admired by all believers, and will manifest Himself as the Judge of the living and the dead. At that time all men, just and unjust, who have lived upon the earth and have died, will rise from the dead [with incorruption] and live again, their souls being reunited with their own bodies in which they have lived evilly or well. But those who are alive in that day and have not died, changed in a moment and in a twinkling of an eye, will put on incorruption, and the whole multitude of the human race will stand before the tribunal of Christ to report what each one has done in their body according to that which he has done whether good or evil. Then Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and will place the sheep on His right hand but the goats on the left, and will give sentence. The just who have lived here holily and have exercised all the works of charity and mercy , as the husband of that Christian multitude, He will take to Himself. They will enter with Him into eternal life and celestial joy and glory, where all will always be with the Lord and will possess forever that kingdom which God the Father had prepared for them from the beginning of the world. But the unrighteous who have not known God nor regarded the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, will be condemned to eternal fire, which was prepared for the Devil and his angels, and they will undergo sorrow and eternal perdition, from the face of the Lord and the glory of His power.

Preserve us, omnipotent God, full of grace and mercy, from the punishment of the impious; and concede to us grace and gifts for a holy life and a happy death and a joyous resurrection with all believers.”

2. The Dordrecht Confession of 1632 [Anabaptist]

Article XVIII -- Of The Resurrection Of The Dead And The Last Judgment. [page 78]

“Regarding the resurrection of the dead, we confess with the mouth, and believe with the heart, that according to the Scriptures all men who have died or fallen asleep, will, through the incomprehensible power of God, at the day of judgment, be raised u and made alive; and that these, together with all those who then remain alive, and who shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ, where the good shall be separated from the evil, and where every one shall receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad; and that the good or pious shall then further, as the blessed of their Father, be received by Christ into eternal life, where they shall receive that joy which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man. Yea, where they shall reign and triumph with Christ forever and ever.

And that on the contrary, the wicked or impious, shall, as the accursed of God be cast into outer darkness; yea, into eternal hellish torments; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched; and where - according to Holy Scripture - they can expect no comfort nor redemption throughout eternity.”

Note:

Some Anabaptist groups in southern Europe were apparently premillennial but are not included in Lumpkin’s book.

For this reason some would argue that the Anabaptist Confessions should not be included. In fact, the London Confession of 1644 was written in part to distinguish Baptists from Anabaptists.​

Confessions of English Baptist in Holland

A number of English Baptists fled to Holland to escape persecution in England. The following Confessions [3 - 6] are from some of these groups.

3. A True Confession by the English Baptists in Amsterdam, Holland [1596]

Article 16 [page 87].

“That this Kingdom shall be then fully perfected when He shall the second time come in glory with His mighty Angels unto judgment, to abolish all rule, authority and power, to put all His enemies under His feet, to separate and free His chosen from them forever, to punish the wicked with everlasting perdition from His presence, to gather, join, and carry the godly with Himself into endless glory, and then to deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father, so that the glory of the Father may be full and perfect in the Son, the glory of the Son in all His members, and God be all in all.”

4. Short Confession of Faith in XX Articles by John Smyth, 1609

Article 19 [page 101].

“That the dead [the living being instantly changed] will rise again with the same bodies; not the substance but the qualities being changed.”

Article 20 [page 101].

“That after the resurrection, all will be born to the tribunal of Christ, the judge, to be judged according to their works; the pious, after sentence of absolution, will enjoy eternal life with Christ in heaven; the wicked, condemned, will be punished with eternal torments in hell with the devil and his angels.”

5. A Short Confession of Faith by the English Baptists, of the Helwys party, in Holland [1610]

Article 38 [page 112].

“Lastly we believe and teach the resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust, as Paul [1 Corinthians 15] soundly teacheth and withesseth: The soul shall be united to the body, every one shall be presented before the judgment seat of Christ Jesus, to receive in his own body wages according to his own works. And the righteous, whosoever hath lived holily, and through faith hath brought forth the works of love and mercy, shall enter into everlasting life with Christ Jesus, the Bridegroom of the Christian host. But the unsanctified, which have not known God, and have not obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall go into everlasting fire. The almighty, gracious, merciful God, preserve us from the punishment of the ungodly, and grant us grace and gifts helpful to a holy life, saving death, and joyful resurrection with all the righteous. Amen.”

6. A Declaration of Faith by the English People, Amsterdam, Holland [1611]
Article 26 [page 123].

“That that the dead shall rise again, and the living being changed in a moment, -having the same bodies in substance though different in qualities.”

Article 27 [page 123].

“That after the resurrection all men shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to their works, that the godly shall enjoy life Eternal, the wicked being condemned shall be tormented everlastingly in hell.”

Continued:

 

Continued from previous post:

You should read Baptist History. There were no Rapture Ready Baptists until Darby came along!

Confessions of English Baptist in Holland, Continued.

7. Propositions and Conclusions concerning True Christian Religion, containing a Confession of Faith of certain English people, living at Amsterdam [1612]

Propositions 91-95, pages 141,142

“91. That all the bodies of all men that are dead, shall by the power of Christ, be raised up, out of his own proper seed, as corn out of seed rotting in the earth.

92. That these which live in the last day shall not die, but shall be changed in a moment; in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trump shall blow, and the dead shall be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed, not in substance but in qualities; for the bodies shall rise in honour, in power, in incorruption, and spiritual; being sown in dishonour, in weakness, in corruption, and natural.

93. But the bodies, being raised up, shall be joined to the souls, whereto formerly they were united; which at that time were preserved in the hands of the Lord.

94. That it is appointed to all men that they shall once die, and then cometh the judgment, and that the change of them that live on the earth at the last day, shall be as it were a death unto them.

95. That there shall be a general, and universal day of judgment, when every one shall receive according to the things that are done in the flesh, whether they be good or evil.”


Confessions of English Baptists in England

The following Confessions [7-11] are from Baptists in England. The earliest and most significant confession of the Baptists in England, the London Confession of 1844 does not mention the resurrection and judgment but does affirm the return and triumph of Jesus Christ.

8. The Midland Association Confession [1655]

Article 16 [page 200].

“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”

9. The Somerset Confession [1656]

Article XL [page 214].

“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”

10. The Standard Confession [1660]

Article XX [page 231].

“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

Article XXI [page 231].

“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”

11. The Second London Confession [1677]

Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]

“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”

12. The Orthodox Creed [1679]

Article XLIX. Of the State of man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 333]

“The bodies of men after death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls, or spirits, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. And besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the holy scripture mentions none. At the last day such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their souls forever and forever, but the bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ, as a severe and just judge, be raised to dishonour; and the bodies of the just and righteous by His Spirit, as He is the head of the catholic Church, unto honour, and be made conformable with His glorious body, and shall enjoy everlasting life; in singing perpetual praises and hallelujahs to God for ever and ever. Amen.”

Article L. Of the last Judgment [page 334]

“And lastly, we believe God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to Whom all power, and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and shall receive a just sentence, according to what they have done in their bodies, whether good or evil, when God according to His purpose, will manifest the glory of His mercy, in the salvation of His elect, and of His justice in the eternal damnation of the wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of joy and glory, but the wicked who know not God, nor obey the gospel offered them in Christ, shall be cast into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. Amen.”

 

Continued from previous post:

You should read Baptist History. There were no Rapture Ready Baptists until Darby came along!

Confessions of Baptists in America

The following Confessions [13-18] are by American Baptists.

13. The Philadelphia Confession of Faith [1742]

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith was not printed in the referenced book but is apparently the same as the Second London Confession with the addition of two articles addressing singing in the church and the laying on of hands.

14. The Kehukee [North Carolina] Association [1777]

Article 14 [page 356].

“We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust, and a general judgment.”

15. The Sandy Creek Association [1777]

Article V [page 358].

“We believe that there will be a resurrection from the dead and a general or universal judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and punishment of the wicked will be eternal.”

16. The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367]

“We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”

17. Articles of Faith-Baptist Bible Union [1923]

Article XVIII. Of the Resurrection, Return of Christ and Related Events[page 389]

“We believe in and accept the sacred Scriptures upon these subjects at their full and face value.
a. The Bodily Resurrection
b. The Ascension
c. The High Priesthood
d. The Second Coming
e. The Resurrection of the Righteous Dead
f. The Change of the Living in Christ
g. On the Throne of David
h. His Reign on Earth”

18. Southern Baptist Convention [1925 and 1963]

Article X. Last Things [page 397]

“God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will dwell forever in heaven with the Lord.”


Confessions of Other Baptists

The following Confessions [18-19] are by Baptists from other countries.

19. The Swedish Baptist Confession [1861]

Article 12 [page 409].

“We believe that this world is to come to an end; that our Lord Jesus Christ will again appear on the earth on the last day, wake up the dead from their graves, and execute a general judgment in which all wicked men will be irrevocably condemned to eternal punishment, while all believing and righteous men will be solemnly established in their possession of the kingdom which was prepared for them from the beginning of the world.”

20. The Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec [1925]

[page 421]

“Maintains the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust, and the general judgment.”

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Post away OR. You don't pay much attention do you?
First, I haven't been posting about pre-trib, have I? My position here has been pre-mil, and only pre-mil, so why are you going off on some rant that is not relevant here?
Secondly, your posting of this creed is irrelevant. With your kinship to the Calvinists you are more in line with the Westminster Confession, which I posted already for you. Your alignment with this confession is shameful. These were the people that persecuted the Baptists, that put them to death. You hold their hands now. Don't lecture me about history. Look at your own fingers that point back at you.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2192013&postcount=52