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Ashli Babbit. Say Her Name.

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Aaron, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    They were evacuating the Congress. At some point, I suspect, he was part of the evacuation.

    peace to you
     
  2. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    I was unaware that you are/were a trained LEO, in my experience talking to fellow Officers who have been in Law Enforcement longer than me, as well as reading department use of force policies - verbal is necessary unless it is an immediate life or death situation.

    So if they were evacuating the congress why didn't he stay there, and ensure no one else would come through? Aside from the fact that it is a violation of protocol to shoot and run off - which he left almost immediately from the look of the video.

    See my prior post, I explained why.
     
    #42 5 point Gillinist, Jan 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    What exactly does your policy manual say about giving a warning? Are you required to say, “stop or I’ll shoot!” or something similar? My understanding is that kind of warning went out in the 1970’s after attorneys used it against officers in court to show premeditation.

    You only draw your weapon if deadly force is already justified. You give a warning (such as drop the knife, gun, pipe etc) if it is reasonably safe to do so.

    In this case, the riot had been going on for some time. Several people were smashing windows, attempting to get into the chamber where Congress was meeting. The intention to do violence, putting the lives of congressmen and women at risk, had already been established long before she crawled through the window. The shooting was justified.

    It is not a violation of protocol to “shoot and run off” if the situation requires it. The LEO on site has to determine if the situation is safe enough to stay. Additionally, if his primary duty was to protect members of Congress, he may have been required to escort them during the evacuation.

    No one else attempted to enter that window. Not sure why you seem to be fixated on his departure after the shooting. He certainly didn’t attempt to cover up the incident.

    peace to you
     
  4. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    You're understanding based on what exactly? Experience, or anecdotal?

    Wichita ks policy "when practical, a verbal warning for the suspect to submit shall be given prior to the use of lethal force..."

    Baton Rouge LA "Officers are required to give a verbal warning, when possible, before using deadly force."

    Baltimore MD "Where safety permits, a member should identify himself/herself as a law enforcement officer and state his/her intention to use Deadly Force/Lethal Force before using a firearm or employing Deadly Force/Lethal Force."

    etc.
    You give examples of such things as "drop the"; gun, knife pipe etc. this does not help your case - the woman had nothing, she was pounding on the glass - clearly she should not have done this regardless of her intentions, but any competent lawman would hardly regard this as a danger to himself that required swift and immediate deadly force (very likely deadly force wouldn't have even been a consideration with most).
    What's more we have to legally warn someone 3 times before we taze them.
    As stated above according to procedure from 3 different departments this was not a case where a verbal warning was not feasible. It has already been established that this man is clearly incompetent and unfit for service i.e. leaving his duty weapon in a bathroom - this shooting solidifies this. I highly doubt any professional LEO there which includes the ones standing a few feet away, would view this as an imminent threat.

    I keep mentioning it because this breaks protocol. Or do I need to bring policies up for this too.
    Are you or have you ever been an LEO?
     
    #44 5 point Gillinist, Jan 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    All the policies you quoted say exactly what I have been saying. Your initial statement of the LEO “must” give a warning or a warning is “required” is not accurate. They give a warning if if is safe to do so. Thank you for proving my point.

    It is not true “she had nothing”. She had a backpack. The threat had long been established that the people “pounding the glass” were making threats of violence against Congress.

    For all the LEO knew, she was suicidal and intended to blow herself up in the chamber. The use of force was justified.

    This officers supervisors determined his actions were a reasonable use of force. You disagree and that is just fine. I give the LEO that was making the decision to save lives in real time the benefit of the doubt.

    I’d rather not to discuss my personal life with strangers in the internet.

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    At this point I think continued arguing would start going into prideful territory (if it hasn't already) for myself - I'm going to cut off my responses now, I've made my point, and I highly doubt we are going to convince each other that one another's views are the right ones. Grace to you. Have good night.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for a candid and civil conversation.

    peace to you
     
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