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Featured Aspects of the Atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed, Jan 25, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He took the very wrath of God that was to be directed towards me as a lost sinner
     
    #61 Yeshua1, Jan 28, 2020
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  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for unpacking scripture on this.
     
    #62 Reformed, Jan 28, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting to me was that he used the scripture, not philosophy, in detailing this theology!
     
    #63 Yeshua1, Jan 28, 2020
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that God punished Jesus with the punishment for our sins?

    And what did this "wrath" consist of?

    Was there any left over for us?

    Yes. We can all agree with the Scripture that he used in dealing with his theology. That is something that unites us. It is the philosophy that divides, not Scripture.

    I understand this spiritual aspect - you have said before that Jesus experienced a type of separation from God. (We are born that way, spiritually separated from God).

    But this does not explain why Jesus had to die. You say to take God's wrath instead of us taking it, and that this is separation from God. But what I am asking is what worth Jesus' blood had (not his experience of some type of separation from God). Why did Jesus have to die?
     
    #64 JonC, Jan 28, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the father treated Jesus as if that was you and me hanging on that Cross, as he tasted and experience for those 3 hours as the sin bearer the wrath and judgment and separation from God all lost sinners shall taste!
    And Jesus was prophesied in the OT to die as cursed by God, hanging upon the tree, and that by his strips and shed blood we would be spiritual healed, correct?
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    This excludes Gentiles in the beginning of the ministry of Christ. He did not come to save Gentiles
    MB
     
    #66 MB, Jan 29, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    His mission was to present Himself, offer Himself to Israel as being their promised Messiah and King, but he knew the nation would reject Him as such, as already had the Church in His plans to have both jews and Gentiles gathered together in one body!
     
    #67 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So the payment for our sins made instead of us was not a physical death or the actual shedding of blood and suffering (as we obviously die physically and suffer physically in this life) but a sense of hell in terms of a type of spiritual separation.... Correct?
     
    #68 JonC, Jan 29, 2020
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Never the less The sheep are the house of Israel. The Gentiles are not the sheep He originally came tp save. Not only this the Jews resisted God's will.
    You even admit this is true by acknowledging that they rejected Christ. Next you'll be telling me that grace cannot be rejected or resisted.
    MB
     
    #69 MB, Jan 29, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, it was all of the above, as Jesus took our sins upon Himself while hanging there, which made Him experience the wrath and judgment of God all lost sinners due in hell, but he had to still die by shedding his blood to make his sacrifice acceptable to the father!
     
    #70 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It can be by the lost, as they keep on rejecting Jesus to save them, but all elect sinners will turn to Jesus and accept Him!
     
    #71 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So His death was not the sacrifice itself (the sacrifice was suffering God's punishment so that we would not) but an addition because that is the way to make sacrifices?

    The redemption is not in the powerless blood and valueless death of Christ (which were simply a means to an end) but in Jesus experiencing God's punishment so that we will not?
     
    #72 JonC, Jan 29, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus had to first experience the wrath of God and receive in Himself the punishment due to lost sinners under judgment of a Holy God, and once their transaction was completed, Jesus died by shedding of His blood .
     
    #73 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is what I said. What paid our sin debt was the Father punishing Him instead of punishing us. His shed blood and death just made God accept it. Correct?
     
    #74 JonC, Jan 29, 2020
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, people die when their blood is shed, I agree. But that is not what paid our debt (since we die), what really matters (the main focus) is the part of it all that was punishment instead of us being punished (penal substitution), correct?
     
    #75 JonC, Jan 29, 2020
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Someone has to take the judgment of God towards sins, so its either Jesus dieing in our stead, or ourselves!
     
    #76 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, rather its his sinless humanity and His Deity that provided for that, as it took a sinless man to die, but that man also had to be fully God to die for all of His chosen and atone for all of them!
     
    #77 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ok. I do not know if I am being clear and apologize if I have not been so far. I am not saying that you are incorrect but I am trying to break down your view.

    If I understand you correctly:

    These things were not a vital part of redemption (what effected redemption):

    1. Christ's shed blood
    2. Christ's physical suffering on the cross
    3. Christ's physical death.

    Those things are important but they are not substitutionary because those things are still common to man (even the elect).

    What redeemed us is:

    1. God satisfying divine justice by punishing Jesus instead of punishing us.

    We did not need someone to die for us (physically) but someone to take the judgment of God towards sins instead of us. Correct?
     
    #78 JonC, Jan 29, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    In order to have that wrath and judgment fully atoned for, Jesus had to shed His blood and die upon that Cross, so it all is tied together!
     
    #79 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know it is tied together.

    Man's blood is shed, he will suffer and die AND THEN the judgment.

    What you present is Jesus having to be born, live, suffer, have his blood spilled and die as is command mankind.

    But the redeeming part is what He suffered instead of us (this spiritual separation), correct?

    In other words what is in focus is this spiritual separation from God in Hell. Correct?
     
    #80 JonC, Jan 29, 2020
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