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Featured Assorted Eschatological Teaching

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:30 AM.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All Christians are Preterists - The American Vision

    All Christians believe in fulfilled prophecy. This makes them preterists to some degree. A preterist interpretation of prophecy puts its fulfillment in the past. What separated unbelieving Jews from believing Jews in the first century was the issue of fulfilled prophecy. Was Jesus the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures that predicted a coming redeemer? Jews who rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah believed He was not the fulfillment of these many prophecies. To them, Jesus was an imposter. He was the son of a carpenter (Matt. 13:53–58). Jews who still believe in the authority of the Hebrew Scriptures are looking forward to their version of the First Coming of the Messiah.

    Floyd Hamilton has calculated that there are more than 330 distinct predictions that Jesus fulfilled.[1] Christians believe these prophecies have been fulfilled. Their fulfillment is in our past, thus, making us preterists.

    The New Testament also contains prophetic material. There are prophecies related to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus predicted Peter’s denial of Him (Matt. 26:33–35; Mark 14:29–31; Luke 22:33–34; John 13:36–38). In the last chapter of John’s gospel, we find a prediction about the disciple whom Jesus loved, presumably John, and Peter (John 21:18–23). In Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 there is a record of Jesus’ comprehensive Olivet Discourse that maps out the future of Israel’s temple and describes wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, plagues, national conflicts, great signs from the heavens, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, persecution, the spread of the gospel to the then known world (Matt. 24:14; Col. 1:6, 23), the abomination of desolation, false prophets, false christs, and more.

    “[T]he term preterism … derives from the Latin presupposition preter (‘past’) and the verb ire (‘to go’), thus referring to what which has gone past and belongs to history.”[2] In Latin, the perfect tense commonly functions as the preterite tense and refers to an action completed in the past. The Greek equivalent would be the aorist tense.

    John was told, “write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to happen after these things [μέλλει γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα]” (Rev. 1:19; 4:1). Some things were happening as Revelation was revealed to John (the things which are), and some things were about to happen. A preterist would connect what John had seen, the “things which are,” with the things that were “about to happen” after these things with no postponement or gap in time.

    Since John is told that the events revealed to him were to take place “soon” (1:1) “for the time is near” (1:3), Revelation is about events that were to happen soon for those living in John’s day, in particular, in events leading up to and including the end of the Old Covenant represented outwardly by the temple and Israel’s capital city, Jerusalem. The Old Covenant had been replaced with a better covenant in the person and work of Jesus Christ who embodies all that the Old Covenant could only represent in temporal (stones) and fallen elements (human priests). Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29), the temple built without hands (John 2:13–22; see Mark 14:58; 15:29; Acts 6:14),[3] the fulfillment of the Davidic kingship (Acts 2:22-36), and “a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man” (Heb. 8:1–2). The Old Covenant was planned obsolescence. The unbelieving Jews turned the temple into an idol like the brass serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21:4–9; John 3:14–16; 2 Kings 18:4).

    There is another component to consider in the interpretive process: audience relevance. How would John’s audience have understood the prophecy? Even today, prophecy preachers turn to the time indicators in Revelation and argue that Jesus is coming soon. But if “soon” means near to the time when we hear a prophecy enthusiast say that Jesus’ coming is “soon,” then why didn’t “soon” mean “soon” to Revelation’s first readers?

    Dave Hunt’s book How Close Are We? includes the following subtitle: “Compelling Evidence for the Soon Return of Christ?” What did Mr. Hunt want his readers to understand by the use of the word “soon”? He certainly didn’t have in mind nearly 2000 years in the future from the time he wrote his book in 1993.

    On the Brink is the title of a prophetic work written by Daymond R. Duck. In the introduction, Duck tells his readers that his book has “300 Points of Light on the Soon Return of Jesus.”[4] Duck and Hunt want their readers to believe that Jesus’ coming is going to take place soon, and by soon, they mean near, and by near they mean in this generation, and by “this generation,” they mean this one here and now. Why didn’t “soon” and “near” mean “soon” and “near” to those who read these time words in the first century?

    Chuck Smith published The Soon to be Revealed Antichrist in 1976. What did Chuck Smith mean by “soon”? While he says we can’t know who the antichrist is, he does say “God is giving us many signs that we are nearing the last days — the stage is being set.” Smith also stated that “we are living in the last generation, which began with the rebirth of Israel in 1948 (see Matt. 24:32–34).”[5] We get some idea from these comments what Smith meant by near.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Does anybody think that these books would have sold well if they carried a title like “We Don’t Know When the Antichrist Will be Revealed So Quit Asking”? The authors purposely chose time words to put readers on the edge of their prophetic seats because they know that “soon,” “close,” and “at hand” mean soon, close, and at hand.

    I wrote Is Jesus Coming Soon? The answer is, Jesus came soon after He told His disciples that He would return within a generation of His earthly ministry based on what He told them in Matthew 24: “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (v. 34), and that included His judgment coming (v. 27) and His ascension where He took His seat at His Father’s right hand (v. 30). Chuck Smith appealed to these same passages to persuade his 1976 reading audience that they were “nearing the last days” and “this generation” is their generation. So why didn’t Jesus’ audience interpret these same words and phrases in the same way and apply them to their time? They did, and that’s the point.

    While Dave Hunt offered what he believed was “compelling evidence for the soon return of Christ,” he claims that “the early church believed that Christ could come at any moment.” In a chapter describing what he believes is the New Testament doctrine of “imminency,” he writes:

    From even a cursory reading of the New Testament there can be no doubt that it was considered normal in the early church to expect Christ at any moment. Paul greeted the Christians at Corinth as those who were “waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:7) — again language that requires imminency. He urged Timothy to “keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Timothy 6:14).[6]

    What we find missing in Hunt’s study of the issue of timing related to the coming of Jesus is a discussion of verses that deal with the timing of Jesus’ return. The Bible does not tell us that Jesus can come “at any moment” spread out over several millennia. The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus’ coming was “near,” close at hand, for those living in the first century. Here are some examples:

    • “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door” (James 5:7–9).

    • “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer” (1 Peter 4:7).

    • “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond‑servants, the things which must shortly take place¼” (Rev. 1:1).

    • “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near” (Rev. 1:3).

    • “And he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true’; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to his bond‑servants the things which must shortly take place” (Rev. 22:6).

    • “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book” (Rev. 22:7).

    • “And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near’” (Rev. 22:10).

    • “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done” (Rev. 22:12; cf. Matt. 16:27).

    • “He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus” (Rev. 22:20).

    These verses, and others like them, clearly state that Jesus’ return was “near,” that He was coming “quickly.” Dispensationalists like to claim that Jesus could come at “any moment” to “rapture” His church. There is no such doctrine in Scripture. “That James does not expect the period to be long is clear when he says the parousia of the Lord (cf. 5:7) is near.”[7]
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The End and Heir of All Things - The American Vision

    A Christian should never fear having his “system” scrutinized by the plain teaching of the Bible. The rallying cry of the Reformation was ecclesia reformata quia semper reformanda est, “the church reformed because it must always be reforming.” This should be every Christian’s rallying cry.

    The church needs to take another look at the topic of eschatology, the study of last things. The topic has not been settled in spite of a great deal of misplaced dogmatism. The Bible is not a book that can be taken lightly. As students of the Bible, we are obligated to take God at His word, even when it contradicts what we’ve been taught by popular prophecy writers.

    One of the first things a Christian must learn in interpreting the Bible is to pay attention to the time texts. Failing to recognize the proximity of a prophetic event will distort its intended meaning. The New Testament clearly states that the “end of all things” was at hand for those who first read 1 Peter 4:7; that is, the Old Covenant with its types and shadows was about to pass away. The book of Hebrews opens with two verses that put the timing of certain eschatological events into perspective: “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world” (Heb. 1:1–2). Prior to the coming of Jesus, God spoke via dreams, prophets, written revelation, and types. Through the New Covenant God “has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready [lit., near] to disappear” (8:13).

    [​IMG]
    Last Days Madness
    The end is here...again. At every calendar milestone, self-proclaimed modern-day ‘prophets’ arise to stir up a furor rivaled only by the impending apocalypse they predict. This doom-and-gloom prognostication is not only spread by a few fanatics, but millions of Christians, including some of the most recognized names in mainstream Christianity who are caught up in the latest ‘last days’ frenzy. In this authoritative book, Gary DeMar clears the haze of ‘end-times’ fever, shedding light on the most difficult and studied prophetic passages in the Bible.

    BUY NOW
    On today’s podcast, Gary responds to a critic of his article “All Christians are Preterists.” A preterist interpretation of prophecy puts its fulfillment in the past. All Christians believe in fulfilled prophecy. This makes them preterists to some degree. Claiming Christ as Lord means that you believe that His birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension were fulfillments of promises and prophecies in the Old Testament. What was once future has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ and is now in the past; it is history.
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You are mistaken on several counts.
    Jewish leaders did not teach premillenialism
    An answer must be given on the 1000yrs.
    The bible speaks of an earthly Kingdom.
    Jesus rules in the midst of His ememies.
    The Kingdom is both spiritual and internal,sptreading ecternally worldwide
     
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  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    MILLENNIUM: MILLENNIUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram

    Table of Contents

    Messianic Period an Interregnum.

    Found in Revelation.

    Messianic Period an Interregnum.

    The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.

    There are various views regarding the duration of this kingdom, and there is considerable confusion in traditional literature on this point, one and the same opinion being often quoted as held by different authorities. According to the two baraitot in Sanh. 99a, the Messianic kingdom is to last for 40, or 70, or 365, or 400, or even for 7,000 years. In the opinion of others its period is to equal the time from the creation of the world, or else from Noah, to the “present” day. Similar statements, often merely ascribed to other authors, are found in Yalḳ. 806. Sanh. 97a quotes Abaye and an old baraita, which is found also in ‘Ab. Zarah 9a, to the effect that the Messianic period comprises two of the six millenniums of the world, while R. Ḳeṭina and a baraita make the interesting statement that the 6,000 years of the world will be concluded by the seventh thousand of the Messianic kingdom. In the passage in Yalḳuṭ. already quoted, this same view is ascribed to two tannaim of the second century. Both of these chronologies are based on the calculation found in Ps. xc. 4 (“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday”), a comparison of which with the account of Creation formed the basis for the 6,000 years of the duration of the world, while the Sabbath corresponded to the seventh thousand, that of the Messiah.

    Found in Revelation.

    The calculation of 6,000 or 7,000 years is found, according to Lagarde (“Mittheilungen,” iv. 315), as early as the Greek translators of the Pentateuch, whom he places about 280 B.C., and is given also in Enoch, xxxiii. The idea of the Messianic interregnum was later incorporated in this form in Revelation (ch. xx.). When Jesus has conquered the serpent, representing the hostile anti-Christian world, the martyrs of the faith will be raised from the dead and will rule with him for 1,000 years as a band of kingly priests. This period is to be followed by the Last Judgment and the creation of a new heaven and a new earth. The concept of the Messianic kingdom, which is here described merely as a reign of peace, is elaborated more fully in the eschatological descriptions of apocalyptic literature (as in Papias), in the Epistle of Barnabas, and in the writings of Justin. Barnabas follows the Jewish theory that the world is to exist unchanged for 6,000 years, and that at the beginning of the Sabbatical or seventh millennium the son of God will appear, although, unlike Papias, he regards this event as purely spiritual. The view of Justin (“Dial. cum Tryph.” cxiii.) concerning the Messianic kingdom is nationalistic in coloring, being influenced, according to Hamburger, by the insurrection of Bar Kokba. After the middle of the second century of the common era these ideas fell into abeyance, until the Montanists arose in Asia Minor (c. 160-220) and revived the ancient hopes, declaring, however, that their city of Pepuza was to be the site of the future Jerusalem and the center of the millennial kingdom. In the Greek Church chiliasm was displaced entirely by Origen’s Neoplatonic mysticism, and was kept alive only in the Oriental branches of that communion.

    Bibliography:

    Corrodi, Kritische Gesch. des Chiliasmus;

    A. Harnack, Millennium, in Encyc. Brit.;

    Semisch, Chiliasmus, in Herzog-Plitt, Real-Encyc.;

    Hamburger, R. B. T. s.v. Chiliasmus;

    Schürer, Gesch. 2d ed., ii. 457 et seq.;

    F. Weber, Jüdische Theologie, 2d ed., pp. 371-373.
     
  7. SovereignGrace

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    No eschatological system teaches there is literally no millennium. Even amillennialism teaches there is a millennium. They view the millennium as being inaugurated at Christ's coming and consummated at His Second Advent. IOW, amillennialism teaches the millennium is going on now.

    What amillennialism and postmillennialism both deny is the future earthly reign of Christ during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:1-3. They see this millennium as going on now with Christ ruling in the midst of His enemies.

    FTR and FYI, I am somewhere between Postmillennialism and Amillennialism.
     
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This thread does not pay attention to the apocrypha,jewish dreams, or what unsaved Jewish thought was.
    There is no biblical evidence that any premillenial teaching was going on.
     
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  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Scripture does not teach a millennium. Some Amills try to use the concept but scripture NEVER mentions it. Let's not add to God's word. The 1000 years in Revelation 20 represent Satan's binding for a long time. But many falsely assume it speaks of the Pharisee's millennium only because John also uses the number 1000. But Jesus dismantles any millennial concept through the gospel of the kingdom if you can take time to study it.
     
  10. SovereignGrace

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    upload_2021-11-26_8-0-57.png

    In each group, clearly there is a millennium. So I’m not adding to God’s word. Each group teaches a millennium, and amillennialism and postmillennialism teach the millennium is going on now.
     
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  11. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Do you want to use some chart in place of scripture? What does scripture say? You think because John uses the symbol 1000 he must be endorsing the Pharisees. You don't understand Jesus refuted their millennium with the gospel of the kingdom. Can you think of even one verse that does so?
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    yes...every view has to account for the language used in Rev.20
     
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I pretty much agree with most of what Ken Gentry teaches and these are the men that I've linked overall I think are zeroing in on the truth and getting closer and closer to opening up the truth from the scripture.
    I have offered up 18 or 19 links the sermons which I understand takes some time to listen to listen to but if anyone is that curious they can listen to how these men look at the same verses same verses and the conclusion they come up with which I very rarely see anyone stating accurately when they discuss end times.
    Well I can look at each of the 4 major views and it's the views and find things to like about each one of them, I find that the post mill see most on the case as far as how would a live and fulfill the great commission here on Earth now in our lifetime and going forth into the future.
     
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  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What I like about the links is that they they do not run away from difficult passages or they will give "actual sources of the people who hold a different view and and they'll say well we agree with this we agree on that but over here ,here's what I believe the passage is saying and they put it right out there .
    They opened up passages of scripture,anyone can listen or read ,or scrutinize what they have to say. Now I think that's helpful I think we need to discuss.
     
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  15. SovereignGrace

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    The millennium has to do with the kingdom of God. Jesus clearly taught it during His earthly ministry and all one has to do is go to John 3 and see it. He told Nicodemus ”Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[John 3:3] He was talking about that as a present reality in His day then. He told the Pharisees ”The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[Luke 17:20-21]
     
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  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But you think he endorsed the Pharisees Pre-Millennial kingdom which He refuted with the Gospel of the Kingdom.
     
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