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Atonement (Not PSA)

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
OK. I am going to try this again.

I have been asked a couple of times to present my belief. This is not a debate thread but a discussion for mr to explain my view and see where it may have problems.

I am NOT trying to change anybody's mind. Every person is responsible for their own views.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
ABOUT ME

I held PSA most of my life. It is what we were taught in church. It is the view I held throughout seminary and my time preaching.

I gave a sermon on the Atonement. I was a Calvinist at the time. This was reflected in my sermon. I went to bed as normal but woke up Monday morning with the conviction I had leaned on my own understanding rather than God's Word.

I thought at first what was being challenged in my mind was election. But I realized it was much deeper.

I wrote out PSA (what makes the theory unique compared to other views) and corresponding passages. I erased passages that did not actually support the theory. Over the next couple of months my boards had no passages.

It was difficult but over the next two years I read Scripture for the actual words of God (consciously not reading PSA into the text).

If you asked me 1 year into it I probably would have wished PSA was actually in the Bible itself. Now I am grateful to read God's words without it as PSA was not merely an addition. It replaced what was actually given to us by God as His revelation.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Here is a summary of my belief. (It will take a bit as I am on an aeroplane and will work through it in steps).


CREATION OF MAN

God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed the breath of life into man; and man became a living being. God planted a garden in Eden. God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

God commanded Adam, saying that he could eat of any fruit of the Garden except from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - for in the day that Adam eats from he will surely die.

God fashioned woman (Eve) from the rib of Adam.

THE FALL
The fruit of the forbidden tree was pleasing to the eye, good for food, and desirable to make one wise.

The Serpent (Satan) was in the Garden. He tempted Eve to eat of the fruit, telling her she would not die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree in disobedience to God's command (a transgressions of the command).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
CONSEQUENCE OF THE FALL

The eyes of Adam and Eve were opened, and they knew that they were naked. They sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. They hid themselves from God because of their nakedness.

God said to the Serpent that he was cursed more than any beast of the field. God would put enmity between him and the Seed of the woman.

He (Christ) shall bruise the serpent (Satan) on the head and Satan shall bruise Christ on the heel.

To Eve God said that He would greatly multiply her pain in childbirth, yet your desire will be for your husband, and he would rule over her.

Because of Adam God cursed the ground so that he would toil to cultivate it until he returned to the ground, because he was taken to the ground and to it he would return. “For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Because Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil, God sent him out of the Garden so he would not eat from the tree of life and live forever.
 

Armchair Apologist

Active Member
CONSEQUENCE OF THE FALL

The eyes of Adam and Eve were opened, and they knew that they were naked. They sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. They hid themselves from God because of their nakedness.

God said to the Serpent that he was cursed more than any beast of the field. God would put enmity between him and the Seed of the woman.

He (Christ) shall bruise the serpent (Satan) on the head and Satan shall bruise Christ on the heel.

To Eve God said that He would greatly multiply her pain in childbirth, yet your desire will be for your husband, and he would rule over her.

Because of Adam God cursed the ground so that he would toil to cultivate it until he returned to the ground, because he was taken to the ground and to it he would return. “For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Because Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil, God sent him out of the Garden so he would not eat from the tree of life and live forever.
We have had disagreements regarding the "Coats of Skin" so perhaps we can clarify the significance of this part of the narrative?

We can contrast the "Coats of skin" as being a solution to the "nakedness" of which Adam and Eve now saw themselves. We could probably expound a good bit on this nakedness in that it represents the shame and guilt regarding their offense and the reason why they "Ran and hid" and sewed fig leaves together in order to cover themselves. Such has been typically presented as being man's attempt at covering his own sin and this is the reason why nakedness is associated with shame and why it is therefore socially unacceptable to run around in our "birthday suits!"

The coats of skin represented a few different things. First of all, it was a more effective and satisfying covering. Secondly, we can see God's mercy and forgiveness, and thirdly (and this is where we have disagreed) that God was demonstrating the means by which the one promised in Gen 3:15 would defeat the curse of sin and bring ultimate reconciliation. While it does not specify explicitly, it implies that an animal (or animals) had to die in order for Adam and Eve to receive these skins and to be clothed and it would be likely that God would slay these animals in their presence so they would have a clear understanding regarding the implications of what they had done (Rom 6:23). Some may argue eisegesis here but I believe this is consistent with the rest of the mosaic writings as we see the sacrifices of the patriarchs progress to the tabernacle and levitical priesthood and ultimately to the cross of Calvary.

Anyway, this is how I am seeing it. Let me know where you disagree.

And have a safe flight!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
We have had disagreements regarding the "Coats of Skin" so perhaps we can clarify the significance of this part of the narrative?

We can contrast the "Coats of skin" as being a solution to the "nakedness" of which Adam and Eve now saw themselves. We could probably expound a good bit on this nakedness in that it represents the shame and guilt regarding their offense and the reason why they "Ran and hid" and sewed fig leaves together in order to cover themselves. Such has been typically presented as being man's attempt at covering his own sin and this is the reason why nakedness is associated with shame and why it is therefore socially unacceptable to run around in our "birthday suits!"

The coats of skin represented a few different things. First of all, it was a more effective and satisfying covering. Secondly, we can see God's mercy and forgiveness, and thirdly (and this is where we have disagreed) that God was demonstrating the means by which the one promised in Gen 3:15 would defeat the curse of sin and bring ultimate reconciliation. While it does not specify explicitly, it implies that an animal (or animals) had to die in order for Adam and Eve to receive these skins and to be clothed and it would be likely that God would slay these animals in their presence so they would have a clear understanding regarding the implications of what they had done (Rom 6:23). Some may argue eisegesis here but I believe this is consistent with the rest of the mosaic writings as we see the sacrifices of the patriarchs progress to the tabernacle and levitical priesthood and ultimately to the cross of Calvary.

Anyway, this is how I am seeing it. Let me know where you disagree.

And have a safe flight!
I think we have to look at what we know and then possible significances.

I know they made coverings of leaves while God provided clothing of animal skins.

From a practical point of view, given that God cursed the earth and Adam would have to work the ground, the change makes sence.

Symbolically I do see this as illustrating God's provision (similar to God making the clothes of the Israelites not wear out during the exodus from Egypt, and Jesus' words about not worrying about what to wear because God would provide).

I think we can both agree on that.

I have not thought much about it, but you are right that it showed Adam and Eve the significanceof death. This would have been their first encounter. It would also give them knowledge needed to survive outside of the Garden.

I would not be comfortable assigning to the event more significance because I could be just as likely reading back into the text. But if we are talking possibilities I agree.

Because of them death entered the world and indirectly because of them God would subject all creation to futility.

And I can see how they would understand this death was to provide for them.

Likewise the Israelites sacrificed animals as "gifts" of obedience but this also provided the blood the priest would use to make atonement for their sins.

And with the crucifixion the death of Christ was a necessity for us to be cleansed. I would even say it was necessary that the Jews be complicit in Jesus' murder (in a way the sacrifice system was a warning about what they were doing).

So yes, I can see God killing an animal to illustrate what man would do in the future. But I think saying it is a significance of the event rather than an illustration we might apply may be pushing it.

Got another hour and a half in the air.
 

Armchair Apologist

Active Member
I think we have to look at what we know and then possible significances.

I know they made coverings of leaves while God provided clothing of animal skins.

From a practical point of view, given that God cursed the earth and Adam would have to work the ground, the change makes sence.

Symbolically I do see this as illustrating God's provision (similar to God making the clothes of the Israelites not wear out during the exodus from Egypt, and Jesus' words about not worrying about what to wear because God would provide).
I am not against this and yes, these other passages you are citing definitely speak of God's provision as we are faithful in whatever God has called us to but seems a bit of a stretch to apply it here in Gen 3. The main theme here is the fall and redemption and we cannot get away from this nor should we. The skins certainly was a gesture of God's grace and I don't know if you were a "Covenant Theologian" back when you were a "Calvy" but I would say that the "Covenant of works" and "Covenant of Grace" seems to fit quite well here. Dispensationalists typically refer to this as the "Age of Innocence" and the "Age of Conscience" but both are looking at this from a redemptionist standpoint.
I have not thought much about it, but you are right that it showed Adam and Eve the significanceof death. This would have been their first encounter. It would also give them knowledge needed to survive outside of the Garden.
I am certain it would be an object lesson they would not soon forget!
And I can see how they would understand this death was to provide for them.
The cursed world was dramatically different from the one Adam and Eve knew in the garden. God would still provide and there is still grace but they have to live with the consequences of sin for the remainder of their lives.

We have to kill in order to survive and provide sustenance and every time you have had to kill in order to provide meat, clothing, shelter, or whatever, you would be reminded of this! Jerome posted some of Calvin's commentary regarding how the coats of skin were a reminder to Adam and Eve regarding the ugliness and severity of their sin and that these skins likely were not the most pleasent of things to wear and perhaps they even carried the stench of death. The scriptures do not say whether or how well God "Tanned and Preserved" the skins prior to making clothing for them! But yes, we are drifting into speculation here and need to be careful of this. I believe that Jerome was trying to refute something I had said but I thought that Calvin's comments actually gave some good insight that I hadn't considered before.

Of course another thing to note is that mankind was either vegan or vegetarian prior to the flood. God told Noah that he could eat meat in Gen 9: 3 and this is the first mention of a carnivorous diet meaning I am not sure how much was going on in the way of "animal sacrifices" prior to the flood.
Likewise the Israelites sacrificed animals as "gifts" of obedience but this also provided the blood the priest would use to make atonement for their sins.
I have heard you make mention of this a few times now. Would you say that the blood is what makes atonement or is it what the blood represents? I would go with the latter and here is why.

Leviticus 17:11 tells us that "The life of the flesh is in the blood" and we understand today from a scientific standpoint that it is the blood that brings oxygen and nutrients to our flesh. Without blood, we cannot live!

Exodus 12:13 says "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you..."

The underlying Hebrew word is lə·’ō·wṯ (226) which according to Brown-Driver-Briggs means a sign, pledge, or token and when I think of a token, I often think of the old game rooms in malls back in the 70s/80s where the machines took tokens rather than quarters and you had to feed your dollars into a change machine in order to get these tokens. Of course a token tells the machine that you have paid the price but the token was a representative but not the actual currency that you had paid. In the same manner, the blood was token of the fact that a death had occurred, that a lamb had been slain in place the firstborn (substitutionary atonement once again, just cannot get away from it!) and the blood placed on the door and side posts was indication that a death had already taken place and the Angel of the Lord would pass on by. Hopefully this makes sense. I know nothing about Hebrew and am completely dependent on the tools here! Perhaps we have a Hebrew scholar who can chime in here and provide additional insight?

My ultimate point there is that the blood is a sign that a death has taken place. It would not be enough to just let some blood out of a lamb, bandage it up, and put its blood on the door. The lamb had to die.
And with the crucifixion the death of Christ was a necessity for us to be cleansed. I would even say it was necessary that the Jews be complicit in Jesus' murder (in a way the sacrifice system was a warning about what they were doing).
Everything from Gen 3:15 on pointed to Christ and his finished work of redemption! I was thinking about the reason why after his resurrection, retained the wound in his side and the nail prints in his hand. When we look upon them, we see grace, mercy, and the reason why we are able to stand before him as being joint-heirs with him! I don't think we will ever get over such a sight! What does a lost man see when he looks upon Jsesus's scars at the Great White Throne judgment? How about the Parable of the Vineyard in Mt 21:33-41 where the wicked husbandmen slew the son of the vineyard owner thinking they could take it for themselves? I believe they will look at those prints and see nothing but judgment, that they are just as guilty as if they themselves had driven the nails in Jesus's hands!
So yes, I can see God killing an animal to illustrate what man would do in the future. But I think saying it is a significance of the event rather than an illustration we might apply may be pushing it.
I am trying as best I can not to read into the passage more than what I should. As I have said, I am leaning mostly upon the progressive revelation we see as we dig further through the books of Moses.
Got another hour and a half in the air.
Isn't it cool how you can be online arguing theology at 35,000 feet in the air? We certainly live in intersting times!
 
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