1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Atonement Theories

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 10, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, hopw are sins paid for and atonementmade if not the PST viewpoint?
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans and Galatians both seem to see the basic problem as being sinners nened to get reconciled back towards Holy God, owe Him a hugh sin debt obligation, so needs to have someone pay thatin full so God can remain Holy and also redeem lost sinners at same time!
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sin debt obligation has to be paid by someone!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think tha main point martin and I are making is that if one does not hold to Pst, then how are our sin debt obligations actually be ing paid in full to God, so that he can remain Holy and freely justify sinners at same time?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Most other orthodox views (that I know of) look to Christ's nature (to His divinity) as God Incarnate. Early views considered mankind as still suffering the consequences of sin but those consequences being made empty as they are redeemed out of the bondage of sin and death. Perhaps this is a less spiritualizing than many would prefer, but throughout history people have looked at the world differently and have sought answers to different questions.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But how would the sin debt obligated due God be atoned for if not the Pst theory?
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your idea of this "sin debt" is unique to Penal Substitution Theory. It would be like Origen complaining that PSA didn't address what was paid to Satan.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Whp pays for us breaking the law of God?
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't believe you understand what I am saying.

    Your question is relevant to PSA but not necessarily to other views. For example, the early church would answer that we pay for sin but Christ redeems us from its grip. This is very apparent in the Ransom Theory but probably evident in most others as well.

    Just as you would dismiss the question about how PSA accounts for paying Satan for human kind, so also would others dismiss your question. It is not relevant to other theories. Just as you and I see Origin as making a false presupposition regarding the ransom, most Christian's would see PSA as making a false presupposition about divine justice.

    The differences simply are not as superficial as one might expect. There is more involved so we can't merely evaluate one theory under the presuppositions of another. There are reasons each comes to their conclusions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The scriptures clearlyteach that the wrath of Godwill come against sinners in judgement, so who atones for that wrath, satisfies it?
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Anti-PSA theories seem to fairly consistently point to Scripture where it tells us that we must die to sin and live in Christ. So they would probably place the issue of a "sin debt" as defined by PSA as an error of interpretation (perhaps even a carry over from RCC doctrine/error).

    PSA holds that Christ paid this "sin debt" by suffering our punishment so that we wouldn't.

    Satisfaction theory holds that Christ's satisfied the demands of this debt (not necessary by experiencing our punishment in our stead but based on His merit).

    Substitution theory holds that Christ was our substitute in some form.
     
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,977
    Likes Received:
    1,671
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Believers are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ, even though we remain sinners, so that we are "justified" (declared not guilty) in the sight of God during the judgement.

    Those without Jesus will suffer condemnation and sentenced to eternal punishment.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Its not just that Jesus kept perfectly the law, for in order to have God impute that towards us, he had to die in our stead and take on what God would give to us in judgement!
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Although all (I believe) believe Jesus kept the Law perfectly, I don't know that all theories understand God's righteousness imputed to us as having its foundation in the Law. This seems more unique to the RCC (treasury of merit) and PSA.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How do we get right standing before God then?
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe all theories present reconciliation through Christ - Christus Victor by Christ's victory over evil, breaking the bonds of sin and death; Moral Influence through a new way of life in Christ; recapitulation through Christ as the "Last Adam"; Satisfaction theory by Christ satisfying the demands of sin against us; and PSA by God punishing Jesus instead of us.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Non eof the other theories though account for just How we all died in Adam, and just how the saved are now all alive in Christ!
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is not true.

    They all account for our state estranged from God, our need for a Savior, and being made alive in Christ. The reason you cannot see this, I believe, is because they do not do so within your expectations.

    Perhaps the clearest example is Christus Victor, which presents man as being dead in sin but freed from its bonds by being made alive in Christ. We see this in the moral influence theory (although I always saw it as a bit of progression). I think this is apparent in recapitulation as well. We see it in the Ransom theory (along the same lines as with Christus Victor). I'm not sure how this would be expressed in the government theory.

    Bottom line is that most necessitate the cross and the blood of Christ shed in our place.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    His blood being shed for what purpose, if not the Pst though?
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,441
    Likes Received:
    3,562
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Redemption.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...