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AV 1611 and the Church of Rome No. 2

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by gb93433, Oct 16, 2004.

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  1. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    The 1611 translators included the apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments with NO indication there was any difference between any of the three. Again, if you do not believe me look at a 1611 photocopy at http://www.baptist-church.org/example.pdf -- it shows the first page of EACH section and there are NO other pages between the last Old testament page and the apocrypha.

    Whether or not they meant it to be scripture does not matter because it is obviously intended to LOOK like scripture. Again, LOOK AT THE EXAMPLE FOR PROOF. Are you afraid to?

    Secondly, we have proven that no ONLY have words changed spelling and misprints, but 400 major changes have been made. Proven FACT. There are MORE changes between the 1611 KJV and the 1769 KJV than there are between the 1769 KJV and the NASB. When you look at TRUE changes and not just substituted words.

    Thirdly, the pretense that the Anglican Church was anywhere close to a Baptist Church in 1611 and then strayed away is completely false and can be proven. The church was a breakoff of the Catholic Church so that Henry could have his first divorce. They HATED Baptists and tried to get rid of them. Historical Fact.

    Besides, I ask again and again and again, where was God's KJV in 1600? If it existed, why did the KJV 1611 have to be translated. So, obviously, if the KJVo theory is true, someone did without a Bible for a lot of generations.

    KJVo? A false doctrine, as shown by the five simple paragraphs above. These are historical facts that we have proof in our hands today. This is NOT assumption. Shall I make a list for you of WORDING and PHRASE changes in the KJV1611 and KJV1769?

    The KJVo lie about using an AV1611. Just type in AV1611 and see how many KJVo sites pop up that are actually using an Oxford edition.
     
    #121 Phillip, Oct 20, 2004
  2. manchester

    manchester New Member

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    I am told that at the end of the Apocrypha in the KJV, it says "here ends the Old Testament" or something to that effect. Can anyone verify this?

    The Anglicans considered the Apocrypha to be Scripture, but did not base doctrines from it.
     
    #122 manchester, Oct 20, 2004
  3. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    These are honest and accurate answers.

    I am going to answer these in all honesty so Michelle cannot say that we don't answer her questions, although she has refused to answer many of mine, including why she accused us of calling her a KJVo.

    I will put a star by each of her questions so you can tell what her questions are, the rest is my answer.
     
    #123 Phillip, Oct 20, 2004
  4. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Here is the list of holy days, from the 1611:

    That is to say: All
    Sundayes in the yeere.

    The dayes of the feasts
    of the Circumcision of our
    Lord Jesus Christ.

    Of the Epiphanie.
    Of the Purification of the blessed Virgin.
    Of Saint Matthias the Apostle.


    Of the Annunciation of the blessed Virgin.
    Of Saint Marke the Evangelist.
    Of S. Philip and Iacob the Apostles.
    Of the Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Of the Natiuity of Saint John Baptist.
    Of S. Peter the Apostle.
    Of S. James the Apostle.
    Of S. Bartholomew the Apostle.
    Of S. Matthew the Apostle.
    Of S. Michael the Archangel.
    Of S. Luke the Evangelist.
    Of S. Simon & Jude the Apostles.
    Of All Saints.
    Of S. Andrew the Apostle.
    Of S. Thomas the Apostle.
    Of the Natiuitie of our Lord.
    Of S. Steuen the Martyr.
    Of the Holy Innocents.
    Munday and Tuesday in Easter weeke.
    Munday and Tuesday in Whitsun weeke.

    In addition, the Wisdom of Solomon is listed several times in the "Proper Lessons to bee read" for holy days.
     
    #124 rsr, Oct 20, 2004
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Manchester said:

    "I am told that at the end of the Apocrypha in the KJV, it says "here ends the Old Testament" or something to that effect. Can anyone verify this?"

    Perhaps Phillip can check. My digital version ends with:

    "2Mac 15:39
    For as it is hurtful to drink wine or water alone; and as wine mingled with water is pleasant, and delighteth the taste: even so speech finely framed delighteth the ears of them that read the story. And here shall be an end.
     
    #125 rsr, Oct 20, 2004
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    [​IMG] Amen, Brother Phillip -- good answers! [​IMG]
     
    #126 Ed Edwards, Oct 20, 2004
  7. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "the Wisdom of Solomon is listed several times in the "Proper Lessons to bee read" for holy days"
    "
    In defense of the Anglicanism of the time Wisdom of Solomon was thought of very highly in the early church. It was in fact known as the churchbook.
     
    #127 mioque, Oct 21, 2004
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Those words are not in the AV1611 First Edition.

    From a photographic copy of the AV1611:

    The AV1611 First Edition on page 1004 says "The end of the Prophets", a little art work then the letters APO.

    http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1004

    The very next page (1005) is the beginning the Apocrypha:

    http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1005

    On the bottom of page 1216 it says "the end of Apocrypha".

    http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1216

    On page 1217 is the NT frontispiece complete with the Hebrew tetragrammaton (you have to blow the picture up 4x to see it) and quite a bit of art embellishments and the words (among others)

    "The Newe Teftament of our Lord and Sauiour Iesvs Christ.

    http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1217

    HankD
     
    #128 HankD, Oct 21, 2004
  9. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Thanks, Hank.
     
    #129 rsr, Oct 21, 2004
  10. manchester

    manchester New Member

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    Hank,

    Doesn't the original KJV say that it contains the Old Testament and New Testament in order, and then it gives the Old Testament in order, Apocrypha in order, then the New Testament in order? And on the cover, doesn't it say it contains the Old and New Testament?
     
    #130 manchester, Oct 21, 2004
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes on the "names of Bookes" page the AV does appear to include the Apocrypha within the "Olde teftament"

    Title Page :
    http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1

    Names and order of all the Bookes of the Olde and New Teftament with the number of their chapters.
    http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=36

    It seems that you are correct manchester, on this page above the AV makes no distinction between the "Olde and New Teftament" and the Apocrypha.

    HankD
     
    #131 HankD, Oct 21, 2004
  12. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am told that at the end of the Apocrypha in the KJV, it says "here ends the Old Testament" or something to that effect. Can anyone verify this? </font>[/QUOTE]I will post the last pages of the OT and also the Apocrypha so you can see how they are ended. I will not leave out anything between the OT and apocyrapha or the apocrypha and NT so you can see the exact concept of the way they are placed together. Remember, this is a photocopy of a REAL 1611 PRINTED bible, not a facsimile of what one might look like. [​IMG]

    I'll post the link tomorrow on this thread (if it is still open, otherwise I will open another thread.
     
    #132 Phillip, Oct 21, 2004
  13. Bethany

    Bethany New Member

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    Can anyone tell me why the apocrypha are no longer included in the Bible when they had been included up until the time of the Reformation?
     
    #133 Bethany, Oct 24, 2004
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Because they are not Scripture. Coming out of the Dark Age it wasn't easy to shake off the Traditions of Rome. Most mainline Protestant churches still have some romish baggage.

    Modern Catholic Bibles still have the Apocrypha and other modern non-Catholic Bibles can still be purchased with the Apocrypha (including the King James).


    HankD
     
    #134 HankD, Oct 25, 2004
  15. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Because they are not Scripture. Coming out of the Dark Age it wasn't easy to shake off the Traditions of Rome. Most mainline Protestant churches still have some romish baggage.

    Modern Catholic Bibles still have the Apocrypha and other modern non-Catholic Bibles can still be purchased with the Apocrypha (including the King James).


    HankD     </font>[/QUOTE]I have personally seen some Bibles closer to our time now that included the apocrypha.
     
    #135 gb93433, Oct 25, 2004
  16. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    I have a Harper-Collins Study Bible (New Revised Standard Version) that contains the full apocrypha. Copyrighted 1989.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #136 Trotter, Oct 25, 2004
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