Babies in Hell?

God knew in advance ABOUT every person before the foundation of the world. God FOREKNOWS (as in knows intimately) only the elect.

...as opposed to...

</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the input. I stand corrected. He knows about everyone in advance, but he only FOREKNOWS the elect. Agreed.

 

Thanks Helen.

The context is a little child who believes in Jesus (Matthew 18:2, 6).

So does Matthew 18:10-11 refer to the angels of children who believe in Jesus, or to the angels of children who aren't old enough to believe or not believe?

 

He doesn't say, does He? In partnership with Matthew 19:14, there is no distinction among the children, thus possibly implying that ALL little children believe in Him, in one way or another.

 

I would like to believe that all infants go to heaven when they die, but the Scriptures are silent on the matter.

The urgency of bringing parents to Christ is all the more significant if in fact babies of nonbelievers do not go to heaven if they die, is it not?

 

Amen!

 

You are saying because Adam sinned babies go to Hell, that is ridiculous. When Adam sinned he brought our natural death, not the second death.

 

So much for original sin!

No, when Adam sinned he brought death to everyone, spiritual and physical.

 

So your contention is that David was speaking of Sheol and when heaven came around it's possible they seperated and the baby ended up in hell? I can understand your desire to not expand on the Word of God, but in this instance I think we are staying true to the Word.

 

Adam brought the natural and spiritual death on himself but he brought the natural death on mankind. "The commandments came, sin revived and I died". What do you think died? You don't have to repent of Adam's sin to escape the wrath of God, you have to repent of your own.

 

I understand the emotional need for everyone to wish that babies are born innocent. But that is the precise view of Pelagius who was condemned as a heretic in 418 at the Council of Carthage. Even the SBC decries the views of Pelagians.

 

Babies have not committed any sins. Therefore they cannot be guilty of sinning! You cannot be guilty of something you never did. However you can be sick with something unto death (think cystic fibrosis, for example) without ever being responsible for contracting it.

Being sick with a sin nature unto death is different from being guilty of sin itself. The child is born sick with the sin nature which, when the commandment comes will result in the spiritual death of that person, but no child is born guilty of sin. That totally decries the entire concept of guilt!

 

A. That doesn't deal with the scripture presented.
B. So? I don't see how this is relevant. Other heretical religions assume many Baptist beliefs. This proves nothing.
C. I don't think we are discussing this from an emotional standpoint more so trying to discern the nature of our God.

 

Here now, this is the second time I've had to warn you about "Spiritual Interpretations", they aren't allows.

That "ONCE (first) death" that is appointed to man is the "Flesh", the "Second death" isn't "Appointed" to anyone, the reason Jesus died for the sins of the "Whole world".

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus didn't take away the "sins of the flesh", that's the death appointed to man, flesh dies to pay the wages of it's sins.

Jesus took away the sins of the "Soul" or "Conscience", as in "knowing good/evil", this is where having the "mind of Christ" enter the picture.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ac 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Jesus didn't put away the filth of the flesh, only of the "Conscience".

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is one of those "secret" in plain sight, that can't be seen wearing "Calvin Glasses".

 

That is exactly what I said. Adam was a grown man and He had received a law from God is why he died spiritual also. I think we said the same thing for I believe the appointment of death is to the flesh also. I am waiting

 

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet:

If God automatically takes babies to heaven, isn't that violating the premise of free will? What if, given the chance to have reached the age of accountability, some of these babies would have chosen not to accept Jesus? That would mean God forced them into heaven against their will just because they never got the chance to exercise it. That doesn't sound like it fits the "perfect gentleman" theory to me.

You could argue that these babies had no choice because they were killed first, but I seem to recall that even the free willers here agree that nothing happens unless God permits it. So why did God permit these babies to get killed before they reached the age of accountability and were able to make a free will choice? I thought the grand scheme of things was about God giving man a choice, because He didn't want robots for servants? These babies didn't get that choice, so they'll end up being robots for God.

It's amazing how many free will arguments go down the tubes when you start applying them to babies...

 

Correct!

In any event, the choice each person makes was made before the creation of the universe in the mind of God. God knows who is in Christ and who is not from the beginning. Therefore, it is irrelevant when someone dies. If you are in Christ, you go to heaven when you die. If you are known by God to be outside of Christ when you die, you suffer eternal conscience punishment. This by your own choice before you ever existed.

Two things are happening here. What God knows and does before he creates. And what happens in time and space after he creates.

You have a free will, but you exercised it in the mind of God long before you were born.

I'm not talking about pre-existent spirits. I'm talking about persons God is going to create before he creates them. And yet he knows each persons future without deciding for them.

Wild, eh?

What think ye?

 

So, Paul33...following your logic, God doesn't have free will himself, since he preordained what would happen, who he would create, what their choices would be, then he is locked in and a prisoner of himself. He could not decide to do anything any differently, such as decide since John Jones would not choose Christ, then not to create him at all to keep him from an eternal hell. This puts God in the role of creating sentient creatures for the ultimate purpose of torturing them.

 

So your God created the majority of mankind so He could torture them in hell. My God , "so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that, whosoever would believe on Him , would not perish but have eternal life.

 

Sigh. Do we have to go through this again?

Using the same flawed logic, your God is such an incompetent that he didn't realize that satan would cause trouble in the garden. So He found himself in a nasty predicament where people would go to hell. Although He wants to save everyone, He can't manage to find a way to do it. But He's a compassionate God, so he sheds a tear while they're all being tortured in Hell due to His incompetence.

 

Sigh. Do we have to go through this again?

Using the same flawed logic, your God is such an incompetent that he didn't realize that satan would cause trouble in the garden. So He found himself in a nasty predicament where people would go to hell. Although He wants to save everyone, He can't manage to find a way to do it. But He's a compassionate God, so he sheds a tear while they're all being tortured in Hell due to His incompetence. </font>[/QUOTE]That is blasphemy and heretical. If you have read the Bible at all you KNOW that Christ is the Lamb slain from the FOUNDATION of the world. God KNEW. He provided for sin. But He did not will sin and did not cause it.

His omnipotence and sovereignty are so much greater than you know...