Baptism of the Great Commission

I posted the following on the thread "church of Christ":

"A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up."

No one has answered the question I posed above. MorganT correctly stated that it would not be answered based on his experience. I am posting it again here for the simple reason that JSM17 is teaching a false doctrine, a false gospel, a gospel of works not grace, on this Forum otherwise he could respond to the inconsistency I raise in the above post.

 

Throughout in the Bible teaches us that salvation always come by faith through OBEDIENCE.

In Hebrews chapter 11 recorded of O.T. saints, of their faith, show that their faith were action by through their obedience.

Noah was a perfect example. When God called Noah to built Ark. Noah did obeyed God. If suppose in the midst time, Noah decides to quit and not finish built the Ark, what would happen to Noah? He and his family would have perished in the flood already, because of his disobedience.

See?

Faith always come with obedience same time.

Faith is not just "Believed", also, we must walk and live by the faith. If we don't walk and live by the faith, then our faith is dead, and we shall not be saved at the end - Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

It is quite obvious that some on this Forum do not believe in the Eternal Security of the True Believer. To believe such is to deny the teaching of Scripture.

Scripture which show that true believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God are as follows:

John 6:35-40, KJV
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-30, KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


1 John 5:10-13, KJV
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV
13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:16,17, KJV
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

I have avoided commenting on the above Scripture because their teaching is crystal clear to anyone who will read them without an ingrained bias. If any want to deny that the above Scripture teach that the true believer is kept Eternally Secure by the Power of God they richly deserve the misery that must come each time they sin, believing that they have been snatched out of the hand of God and are eternally lost.

Jesus Christ died for our sins one time and we can be saved only once. If we can lose that salvation then we are eternally lost. But thank God He keeps those that are His.

 

Ive only one thing to add to this and its AMEN

 

OldRegular,

I don't have to preachy you repeat and repeat on John 6:35-40; John 10:27-30; and Romans 8:28-30 several times.

Myself was a securist background before. I knoe eternal security doctrine so well, because I was taught from baptist churches. They always cities on these passage as security eternal salvation proof. But, they misinterpreting these what they actual talking about.

Christ said of John 6:35-40 of his promise that He will not lose one, and woill not cast person away. That's wonderful, and amen. Understand, Christ said that anyone who COME TO Him first. 'Come to' is same as follow.

Several times in the four gospels, C hrist said to people and disciples, "Come and follow me".

John 6:35-40 speaks of His promise to us while we follow Him, he will not cast us away, and will not lose one of us. He will never, never fail us. Otherwise, if we stopped follow Him, then He would cast us away according John 15:4; Romans 11:19-23.

Also, Christ said of John 10:27-30, that Christ promises us, He KNOWS his people(sheep) who hear and follow Him, no one can take sheep away from His hand, because He have the power to preserve us.

Otherwise, if a person stopped follow Christ, He would loose person out of hand, and it is not Christ's fault, individual's responsiblity and make decision and choice, if a person want to leave Christ, or turn away from him, so, therefore, Christ allows or let person go, as its according to Luke 15:11-32 of a prodigal son.

And finally,

Romans 8:35-39 is not talking about salvation at all. This passage focus on God's LOVE. Everything cannot separate us from God's love, while facing trials, troubles, tribulations, persecutions, etc. He always love us all the times. Also, this passage do not discuss about SIN at all.

Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Regarding Matthew 28:19-20

I have seen several translations that use "baptize them" and "teach them" -- the English ones include the NCV, and the ICB uses different punctuation and capitalization.

The margin of the Spanish Reina-Valera Actualizada uses strong equivalents in Spanish. The strong imperative is used.

It is evident that these Greek words can be legitimately translated in these ways.

Really, it does not matter how the verbs are translated. If the people we baptize are not "disciples"/Christians until they arise from baptism, then it is impossible to baptize "disciples" and we cannot obey this passage.

Rather, "baptize them" (NCV) means we baptize "disciples" and therefore, "disciples" are "disciples" when we baptize them -- not after.

 

The question was to another, but I want to comment.

Here is my view on baptism and its importance.

In Matthew 28:19-20a Jesus Christ said

“make disciples of all the nations|. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you” (NASB|NCV).​

Jesus Christ expects His followers to be baptized in His Name just as He expects them to obey Him.

From what I read, if a person is resistant in attitude toward baptism, s/he has the same attitude toward obeying Jesus Christ in general. A person who is rebellious against Jesus Christ's call to water baptism is a rebel against Jesus Christ.

I never argue someone into a baptistery. Only Christians are fit to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. Under no circumstances would I have a rebel against Jesus Christ defile water baptism. If a person wants to avoid baptism, I would encourage that wish being accommodated. Rather than argue such persons into baptisteries, we should urge them to genuinely believe upon Jesus Christ as Lord. Then and only then is it appropriate to move for baptism.

Still, there are unbaptized Christians who are not rebellious against baptism. There are Christians who have undergone a pouring or sprinkling ritual called `baptism,' and they think they are baptized -- when they are not. They cannot be convinced to be baptized, because they think they would be undergoing `rebaptism' and thereby sinning.

There are other causes of unbaptized Christians. When I became a Christian, I promptly asked to be baptized. Unfortunately, it was at a Baptist congregation. The answer: no. It was not until four months later I was permitted to be baptized. Granted, if I had it to do over again, I would have made other arrangements. Still, I wanted to be baptized -- but it was withheld from me. I am sure I am not the only person this has happened to.

There is no question here whether or not Christians should be baptized. If Jesus Christ told us to do it, we should do it. However, we still have to be accurate: Christians will be saved baptized or not.

 

Oh, that is great.

If someone does not infer from the text what you have decided, s/he is not "honest." An "honest" Greek teacher will evidently agree with you, and if s/he does not, then s/he is not "honest."

What a joke.

Fact is, we do not baptize "nations"; we baptize "disciples" as individuals. There is not a single instance of national baptism in Scripture. In Scripture, individuals get baptized.

If no one is a "disciple" until they arise from baptism, then we do not baptize "disciples" and it is impossible to obey this passage. I do not believe Jesus Christ gave us directives that are impossible to fulfill.

No; we baptize "disciples" in Matthew 28:19-20. Only when it is acknowledged that we baptize "disciples" is it possible to obey the Great Commission with the correct understanding.

 

THE CONCEPT, OR DOCTRINE FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IT, THAT ANY EXTERNAL ACT SUCH AS WATER BAPTISM IS REQUIRED FOR SALVATION REDUCES THE CHRISTIAN FAITH TO THE LEVEL OF PAGANISM.

 

Excuse me.

I am amazing that, Baptists at Baptistboard, and many Baptists across America easily attack on Church of Christ, SBC, and Seventh Day Advent, called them, "cult". I cannot understand why many Baptists are acts like Pharisees.

For me, I do NOT consider that SBC, Church of Christ, and Seventh Day Advent, are cult. Because, they do believe Jesus is the Son of God, do believe in salvation, the same way as Baptists believe. For example, CoC, SDA, and SBC believe the same thing of salvation - 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess. Same with Baptists do the way of salvation.

Then, why attack them, called them, 'cult'?

There are major disagreement among them with Baptists about salvation process of lifetime AFTER person believed and accept Christ. Most baptists believe in unconditional salvation, while, many Coc, and SDA believe in conditional salvation.

Many CoC and SDA make many good points on conditional salvation. I have no problem with them, because they follow Bible carefully on salvation doctrine. I respect them. I do not consider that they are cult.

I have no problem that I can easily label Jehovah Witness and Mormons are cult very clearly, because, they added tooo many weird doctrines that are not find in the Bible.

But what about Coc and SDA? I only see minor problems within them on their doctrine. These do not bother me at all. Because SDA believe they must follow all Ten Commandments, INCLUDE 4th or 5th of "Sabbath". I have nothing against them. I respect them well.

Also, I have nothing against CoC about musical instruments are not allowed. I have no problem with them, because I am deaf :smilewinkgrin: . Deaf ministries at churches, do not use music instruments- no piano, no guitar, no drum, voice machine, etc... Deaf people do sing the songs with hands of ASL. They're beautiful.

So, for me, I do NOT see CoC have any serious doctrines which is conflict with God's Words.

I know many Baptists(IFB), SBC, CoC, SDA are truly born again Christians saved people. Because, they did believe Jesus is the Son of God. They did accepted Christ as saviour. Also, they did obey Christ to be baptized.

I never consider that SDA, CoC are cult. NEITHER, I consider SBC and IFB are cult either.

Then, why attack CoC and SDA, call them, 'cult'? I guess probably, many Baptists dislike the strong truths from the Bible that CoC and SDA show them the truths. Huh? :saint: That what I feel.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I like King James Version better. Word. 'believeth' in Mark 16:16 is a present tense means believing. It doesn't say, 'believed'. If supposed, it says, 'believed', it would have mean that it is a one time event as onced believed on Jesus is saved. Rather, KJV tells us very clear, a person have to continue believe on Jesus throughout lifetime to death, then shall be saved-future tense.

While Mark 16:15 says, 'baptized' it is a past tense, because it is a one time event. Nowhere in Bible saying that a person will have to be re-baptize again after get right with the Lord again from being backslidden.

Throughout Bible always emphasis on salvation is conditional by base on repent and endure faithful life till death according Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

Also, notice the last part sentence of Mark 16:16 says, 'he believeth not' it is a present tense, means a person is currently disbelief.

Same with Romans 11:19-23 telling us, a person is being cut off because of disbelief. When a person stopped believing in Christ in the process life, then will be no longer remain saved and being cut off at the end(at death).

Bible teaching us that, salvation is conditional that we are responsible to obey and endure throughout our life to stay follow Christ all the way till we die or Lord comes, or otherwise, we would be cut off.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

You cannot have believing without salvation and be Scripturally correct.

Acts 10:43 says of Jesus Christ "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

It does not matter what you do with any portion of Scripture to make it appear to support your views. Inference never `trumps' statements of Scripture. If your inference goes against statements of Scripture, your inference is wrong.

If you teach that believers can be unsaved, then you `fly in the face' of statements in Scripture such as Acts 10:43.

 

Again you are taking the passage out of context:

Mark 16:16-20, KJV
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Please notice verse 17: And these signs shall follow them that believe. Nothing is said about them that believe and are baptized, only them that believe.

Now I realize some question the authenticity of verses 17 and 18. However, it is a fact that the events described here were practiced by the Apostles, except possibly, "drink any deadly thing".

Context, context, context!

 

OldRegular,

I understand. You say context. You believe Mark 16:15-20 has do nothing wsith baptism for salvation, but, it is the sign.

I believe Mark 16:17-20 were for Jews during Early Church. Paul said that speaking tongues were ready to fade away, also healings too. Today, we do not practical speak in tongues such as Charismatic Movement are do them today.

But, yet, I believe Mark 16:15-16 are same as Matt. 28:19-20; and Acts 1:8 speak of great commission was given by Christ to Church to spread the gospel to the world.

I do truly believe that baptism is a commandment from God, it is a part of salvation. If any individual do not want to be baptize, then individual does not obey Christ's command or great commission. So, therefore. they would be end up in everlasting fire according 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib

Water baptism is an act of obedience to Jesus Christ. Water baptism follows the example of Jesus Christ. Water baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. However, it has nothing to do with salvation.

Can you or anyone else on this Forum present Scripture that specifically show that all the Apostles were baptized [other than Paul]?

 

Are you kidding me, you folks come prancing in here telling everyone that the only way to be saved is to be baptized, then you people tell us that you can lose your salvation but you dont have to be baptized to be saved again. Do you know how crazy that sounds. The reason there is no eveidence in the bible that states that you have to be rebatpized is because you dont have to be baptized to be saved in the first place. All it takes is Faith in Jesus Christ just like the scriptures say.

Luk 7:47-50 Therefore I say to you, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little. (48) And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven. (49) And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins? (50) And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace.

What saved her, her FAITH

Luk 18:42-43 And Jesus said to him, Receive your sight! Your faith has saved you. (43) And immediately he received his sight and followed him, glorifying God. And when they saw, all the people gave praise to God.

FAITH

Joh 3:14-18 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (15) so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (17) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. (18) He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

That belief takes FAITH

Joh 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. (8) All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. (9) I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.

That takes Faith

Act 2:21 And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, according to which manner they also believed.

Act 16:30-33 And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household. (32) And they spoke the Word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his household. (33) And taking them in that hour of the night, he washed from their stripes. And he was baptized, he and all his, immediately.

Baptism was after salvation from believing which took FAITH

Rom 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? (25) But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience.

That Hope takes FAITH

Rom 10:8-14 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim; (9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame." (12) For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him. (13) For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (14) How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without preaching?

Over and Over again and again the scripture points to Faith to gain salvation, not baptism