Baptism

Thanks. It is not a matter of being happy. It is a matter of ethics, making clear when something is not original with you.

So you would encourage a couple to sin? The Bible does not give “remarriage after divorce” as a biblical reason for divorce. So you, by your own admission, are contradicting your own position.

The Scripture says nothing about “marriage in God’s eyes.” You are making that up.

Interestingly, the passage you cite says “If they don’t have self-control, let them marry.” Do you believe that or not?

No. They are divorced. The Bible recommends divorce, and it is even pleasing to God in some cases (such as Post-exilic Israel). God regulates divorce in the law, forbidding it in certain cases, meaning that it isn’t forbidden in other case. He regulates remarriage under the law (Deut 24:1-4). So clearly, you are not taking into account all of Scripture.

But Scripture doesn’t say this. This is your conclusion.

Yes repent. But don’t add to your sin with more sin, and that is what you are encouraging.

I don’t know. It seems like you are not willing to deal with Scripture, and as a result, we can’t really get anywhere on this topic because Scripture is so central to it. You do not seem to be aware of what Scripture says about the topic. You have simply picked out a few passages, made up a few terms, and then formed a position.

You’re not bothering me.

It is inconceivable to me that you think I refuse to acknowledge the Scripture. I am fairly sure I have done more study on this than you have, and am more aware of the topic than you are. That fact that you are overlooking some biblical passages on this confirm that to me.

That’s flatly wrong.

I wasn’t upset you quoted it. I pointed out that you need to give credit, and you need to do more than quote. All you did was prove you know how to cut and paste. You did not prove anything about what you believe about Scripture.

I think you are ignoring Scripture. You are advocating more sin as an answer to past sin. You are creating categories that the Bible gives no indication of.

I disagree with your method.

 

OK Larry, I ask you to do one thing for me then, PLEASE, explain to me your position and use scripture as your basis. Meaning as you go thru it could you quote the scripture that you reference to support your view. No were in scripture is divorced condoned, it just doesnt line up with scripture.

Oh and one other thing please dont presume that you have studied more than I have just because you are a Pastor doesnt mean that I have not studied the bible just as much as you have. I have been in Church all my life and saved for the last 30 yrs so for you to presume that you have studied more than I is just that a presumtion with no bases.

 

Okay. I will make it brief, and I won't quote the Scripture for the sake of space, but will give the references where appropriate (some comments will be the conclusion of general teachign which will be obvious from the statement). This will be brief, and from memory, so I may miss something that you have a specific question about. I will return and answer specific questions or give clarification.

General teaching about marriage:

1. God intends one man and one woman for life (Gen 2:25; Matt 19).
2. Divorce is never the best option, though it is sometimes permissible (Matt 19; 1 Cor 7).
3. When divorce happens, the marriage is over (Matt 19; 1 Cor 7:15).

Specific teaching about marriage:
1. Divorce is regulated in the OT in a number of passages (cf. Deut 24:1-4, Deut 22:13-19). I cannot think of any inherent sin that Scripture regulates. You don't seem laws like "You can steal on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, or when some steals from you." On the other divorce is regulated. Sometimes it is outright forbidden (cf. Deut 22:29-29), meaning that had the situation been different divorce would have been permitted. So the fact that God does not outright forbid divorce and instead regulates it means that in some cases it is acceptable.
2. In Ezra, you have a case of divorce for the purpose of pleasing God (Ezra 10:3-4).
3. In cases of adultery or desertion, divorce may be allowed as a last resort. However, if the offending spouse repents and asks forgiveness, the "innocent spouse" is to forgive and reconcile the marriage (cf. Eph 4:32).
4. If one party insists on divorce, the other party is not bound to the marriage, but is free (1 Cor 7). They may remarry, though it may not be wise for them to do.
5. If a couple is divorced "unbiblically" they are still divorced. If reconciliation with their original partner is possible, they should pursue that. If it is not possible, they may be free to remarry (but it is not necessary to remarry, and they may be better advised to not remarry). However, in the words of 1 Cor 7, they have not sinned if they marry.
6. If a couple is remarried after divorce, they should follow God. They should not divorce because that would be to add sin to their lives. They should building a God-honoring marriage and live in his grace.

That is simply false. Ezra 10 shows that it was.

My statement was based on my knowledge of my background and the obviously incomplete and inqadequate answers that you have given. Though someone with much study can differ with me (and I have changed my position over the years as I have studied), if they have studied they would be more familiar with the issues than you seem to be.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that its not the Pastor's job to convict people of their sins, but the Holy Ghost's. Here's another scenario for you to chew on. What if someone comes down the isle and gives their hand to be taken in as a member, and to be subsequently baptized, and you see them staggering and smelling alcohol on their breath? Would you take them in? Different scenario, but the same conclusion. You can't hold onto the world and the Lord simultaneously. Jesus said He would rather have us cold than lukewarm, for if we were lukewarm, He'd spew us out of His mouth. Just like I stated in my earlier post, the Prodigal Son had to come out of the "pig pen", to find his way back to Father's house.

If we start taking in people who are living with someone out of wedlock, it sets a bad example. How can any of us tell people this is wrong, and then turn right around and start taking people in who are "shacked up" with someone? Watch and pray, kepp yourself unspotted from the THINGS OF THE WORLD, whereby through temptation ye may overcome. Isn't living with someone out of wedlock consider "wordly"? I hope this helps.

Willis

PS I can't stand "altar calls". I have never read where Jesus stood and said, "come, come, come, come, to the altar and be saved!!" Jesus wasnt then, and still isn't, a beggar. He comes to us, and draws us towards Him, but it's up to us whether we decide to hear or forebear.

 

True

True

True the marriage is over but you are overlooking Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is put away commits adultery.
Its clear to me that a remarriage is sin
and in 1Co 7:10-11 And to the married I command (not I, but the Lord), a woman not to be separated from her husband. (11) But if she is indeed separated, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to leave his wife.

I just dont know how much plainer than that can be.

Yes divorce is acceptable in cases of fornication

No argument here

HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM, you see the scripture is referring to a saved person that is married to a unsaved person, not a couple and both are saved.
1Co 7:12-17 But to the rest I speak, not the Lord, If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is pleased to dwell with him, do not let him put her away. (13) And the woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is pleased to dwell with her, do not let her leave him. (14) For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; else your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. (15) But if the unbelieving one separates, let him be separated. A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such cases, but God has called us in peace. (16) For what do you know, O wife, whether you shall save your husband? Or what do you know, O man, whether you shall save your wife? (17) But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all churches.

and if you are referring to this 1Co 7:27-28 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. (28) But if you do marry, you did not sin; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But such shall have trouble in the flesh, but I spare you.


Im afraid that you are the one that is misunderstanding scripture

This view just doestn line up with scripture

They are sinning and should REPENT

Your use of Ezra 10 is almost comical, Ezra 10 those people were unequally yoked, chosen married to unchosen, clean married to unclean, which in itself was a sin.
Ezr 10:2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, of the sons of Elam, answered and said to Ezra, We have sinned against our God and have taken strange women from the people of the land. Yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing.

You keep telling yourself that, Im quite familiar with the issue.

 

Here is one for you to chew on, what if that person walked the isle and said I just gave my life to Jesus and accepted him as my Lord and savior and would like to be follow him in baptizm. Would you denia him

THE REAL QUESTION IS: IS JESUS BLOOD ENOUGH TO COVER HIS SINS
He wants to repent but he hasnt had time after all he just gave his life to Jesus 10 seconds ago, do you permit him or not the next time they baptize????????

 

You are missing the “exception” clause.

I agree.

If a person pursues an unbiblical divorce, they are giving evidence that they are not a believer.

I already addressed that passage about. Don’t be afraid. I am not misunderstanding.

How much plainer could it be? They can remarry and God regulates that in the OT.

Not according to the Bible. They are married and should not sin.

How is that comical? It shows clear evidence that God condoned divorce in certain cases.

Then let’s see some serious interaction. Even this post is so devoid of content and interaction that it makes me wonder if you are even serious about this. You are contributing nothing at all here. You do not reckon with Scripture in any kind of substantive way.

Why is it that God regulates remarriage in the OT if remarriage is adultery? Why is it that God never tells a remarried person that they have to get divorced?

 

I give up, you disregard scripture as if it were manure, I quit, I dont concede, I just quit because you are twisting scripture and this is going no were.

 

Now that is highly offensive. You said earlier that you didn't want to do that, yet here you have done it. , I quit, I dont concede, I just quit because you are twisting scripture and this is going no were.

Where? So far, I have brought up Scripture that you refuse to respond to. And you say I am twisting it.

I have asked questions that you refuse to answer. The only question I recall you answering is one that recommended people sin. I don't get that especially now that you saying I am disregarding and twisting Scripture. It is ironic that you don't interact with Scripture and yet accuse me of twisting it. You won't even deal with it.

So again...
Why does God regulate divorce and remarriage?
Why does God give certain cases in which divorce is never an option?
Why does Scripture say "If you marry you have not sinned?"
What does it mean to be free in 1 Cor 7:15?
On what biblical basis do you tell someone they have to get divorced?

Again I assure you that you do not have a stronger position about marriage and divorce than I do. But you seem woefully lacking in your understanding and application of Scripture. It is fine for you to disagree with me. It isn't fine for you to ignore Scripture.

 

OK Larry here it is in a nutshell from my study on this subject

1. God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16).
2. Christ teaches that divorce is an accommodation to man's sin and is in violation of God's purpose for the the marriage bond (Matthew 19:5-9)
3. It was a concession for the "innocent party" due to the insensitivity of the other partner to God. (Gen. 2:24)
4. This is defined biblically as the "hardness of heart" (Matt. 19:8)
5. Dissolution meant that the innocent party no longer had to remain in a hopeless and intolerable situation (Matt. 5:32, 19:9; I Cor. 7:12-15)
6. The only biblical grounds for divorce are (1) fornication, or (2) a nonbelieving partner who initiates the divorce due to incompatibility with a Christian.
7. The first is fornication(Matt. 5:32; 19:9; I Cor. 5:1). Adultery will take place even after the "official" dissolution of the marriage if the divorce is on nonbiblical grounds (Matt. 5:32; Mk. 10:11,12)
8. The second reason for permitting a divorce is in cases where a nonbelieving mate refuses to live with his or her believing spouse, especially because of his or her Christian testimony (1 Cor. 7:12-15)
9. Keep in mind that the Bible merely permits divorce in these limited circumstances but never commands divorce. (This is clearly indicated in Hosea 1-3, where the adulterous wife is forgiven and restored.)
10. Remarriage is permitted for the innocent party when the divorce was on biblical grounds. In cases where a divorce was obtained between believers on nonbiblical grounds, the person who remarries first commits "adultery" (Matt. 19:9) and the person who marries a person who was divorced on nonbiblical grounds also commits adultery (Lk. 16:18)
11. According to the Old Testament pattern, remarriage was allowed after the divorce (the exception is found in Deut. 24:1-4). The New Testament allows for remarriage when the divorce was based upon biblical grounds (I Cor. 7:15). In cases where the divorce was not for the two reasons stated above, the believer is exhorted to (1) seek for reconciliation, or else (2) remain unmarried (I Cor. 7:10-11)
12. When one party remarries after a divorce which was on nonbiblical grounds, that person has committed adultery because God did not recognize the validity of the divorce (Matt. 5:32; Mk. 10:11). Since the remarried partner has "committed adultery," the marriage bond is now broken and the remaining partner is free to remarry.

13. The Bible gives a word of caution to anyone who is considering marriage to a divorcee. If the divorce was not on biblical grounds, the person who marries the divorcee is considered an adulterer (Mark 10:12).

14. The one who obtains a divorce on nonbiblical grounds and remarries is living in a state of "adultery" since God did not recognize the validity of the original divorce (Matt. 5:32, Mk. 10:11-12). That person is subject to the steps of church discipline as outlined in Matt. 18:15-17 and in I Cor. 5:1-13

Now I am going to have to take back my previous view on them getting divorced after the remarriage because YOU LARRY have made me dig into this way deep and study this on out, so this one is just for you Larry

15. A true sign of repentance will be a desire to implement I Cor. 7:11. This involves a willingness to remain unmarried or else to be reconciled to their mate. In cases where a believer obtained a divorce on nonbiblical grounds and remarried, the second marriage union is recognized as living in "adultery" (Mk. 10:11-12). If repentance takes place, it is recognized that to obtain a second divorce would disobey Scripture (Deut. 24:1-4), hence, they are to remain in the second marriage (I just found that last section while getting this together for you Larry)

Now help me to understand it better please. How do they repent without turning away from it, that is my question to you. Let me tell you Larry this one was not easy to come up with and I have been compiling this and I just came across the Deut. 24: 1-4. You know though if Pastors were not marrying these people they wouldnt have to worry about Deut. 24, Now are we even close to being on the same page. Also Larry my last post I guess I was getting a bit frustrated with the whole situation and should not have said what I did and I apologize for offending you.

 

I agree, but Hugenberger has shown pretty conclusively that Mal 2:16 doesn't say that God hates divorce. The ESV probably has the correct translation here.

[/quote]Yes, I completely agree.

In cases of desertion, the believing party can initiate the divorce, though in general I wouldn't recommend it.

Not sure what this means.

Yes.

Yes, it is also clearly indicated in Matt 19.

Here is a problem. Your argument about the person who remarries first is not found in the Bible. In general I tend to agree, but even in an unbiblical divorce, once the option for reconciliation is removed because of remarriage, the other party is probably free to remarry. It is still better to marry than to burn.

Deut 24:1-4 does not prohibit remarriage, but only prohibits remarriage of the original spouses after an intervening marriage.

1 Cor 7:10-11 say nothing about the legitimacy of the divorce.

They have perhaps committed adultyer initially, but there is no indication that the adultery is ongoing.

Possibly, though I think this is not universal. If someone obtains a divorce on nonbiblical grounds, and then tries to reconcile and is refused, they may be free to remarry. There are all kinds of things that might factor into this.

Good

Repentance is an attitude towards God and sin, and a resolve to take action so far as they can. There are some actions that cannot be undone, whether because of practical impossibility, or that to fix them would cause more sin (such as in the case of divorce). I think a couple in this case would say, We should not have done this, but we did; from now on we will follow Christ and have a God-honoring marriage. There is no easy solution where sin is involved.

Deut 24 is part of the Law and is not applicable to bleievers today. Furthermore, I don't know how pastors marrying people has anything to do with this. I don't follow you there.

Thank you for saying that.

 

Well Larry, I think that, thats about as close as we are going to get, its been fun, frustating and informative with you on this. When we study we always come out a better person and a more informed one. Thanks and have a good day.:godisgood:

 

I can tell you something I have seen, and you take it for what it's worth. I can remember a time when my dad would get drunk, and pray like a preaching man...he'd kill me if he knew I was typing this...LOL(BTW, my dad is an ordained Elder now, praise God). But the next morning, he would go on living like nothing ever happened. Now, here's my question to you. Was it the "booze" talking, or God? I have a hard time believing God would save someone who was slobbering drunk. If they were to come to me, I'd tell them to come back next week, and we'd talk. My mother-in-law said a church real close to me had this happen to them and they did this very thing. They never came back. Did that individual feel rejected, or were they drunk and unsaved and realized they were unsaved? That's between them and their Maker. I am not hard hearted, but I couldn't take someone in that had liquor on their breath. God saves people from their sins, not while they are in them.

Willis

 

I really dont disagree with you at all, its just for the sake of another view my question is why couldnt he save someone that has sobered up coming off of a drunk but yet still have alcohol on his breath.