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Featured Be killing your philosophy or it'll be killing you?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I think that we are often hard on the group of people to which we belong because we have an intimate knowledge of that group and see the issues associated therein. I typically associate with a Calvinistic minded segment when the topic tends towards soteriological predestination within Christian philosophy because this segment most represents my view (I’d lean towards Edwards on the issue, which would make me a bit left of center).

    What I’ve noticed, both in the “real world” and on the Baptist Board is the extent to which Calvinists would comprise a group Scripture defines as “false prophets” or “false teachers” based not necessarily on their teachings but on their fruit. I am sure this is true of other camps and subgroups as well.

    This does not mean these people are not saved. I have been guilty of producing poor fruit when it comes to interactions on this board and in other life situations. Christians are disciples who are on the journey of sanctification. Scripture reminds us of an ever-present need for repentance and belief.

    But when the fruit betrays a disease in the plant that condition must be address appropriately. As John Owens wrote, “Be killing sin or it will be killing you.”

    Francis Chan wrote that when we “submit to the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit, He helps us become more holy—more like Jesus. It is a lifelong journey of putting our flesh to death, or as Paul puts it in Galatians 5, of walking by the Spirit and not gratifying the desires of the flesh. We cannot live submitted to the Spirit and at the same time gratify the flesh because these two “are opposed to each other” (Gal. 5:17). The works of the flesh are things like strife, fits of anger, dissensions, and idolatry. The works of the Spirit are things like love, self-control, joy, and faithfulness.”

    Is this the effect of your position? When I look at Calvinism “on the ground” (rather than from academia) it is apparent to me that Calvinists have in a large part earned the reputation as hateful, prideful, and arrogant. But why does the doctrine produce such fruit?

    As a whole are we a more loving people than non-Christians? Are we more forgiving to others? Are we more just a people? More peaceful?




    (Reference: Chan, Francis. Forgotten God: Reversing Our Tragic Neglect of the Holy Spirit; John Owens, The Mortification of Sin; Galatians 5:22-26; Matthew 7:15-16 ; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 )
     
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  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    What happened to the Calvinists such as D. James Kennedy? He was a staunch Calvinist, but he was the most evangelistic, most loving man to ever stand in a pulpit.
     
  3. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Well JonC interesting that you can see this and yet it's a mystery to you as to why? I'm not sure why it should be. Consider. Does not Calvinistic thinking regardless of what some might claim effect many in their consciousness as cause them to think other human beings really don't have value. Obviously non-Calvinist believe God loves all meaning they're important. If you're truly thinking some are just meant for darkness and destruction how much love and patience can you really show them. Oh you know you're supposed to but how much heart conviction can you really draw up with any great passion. So couldn't this answer your question?
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Calvinistic doctrine in itself does not produce the idea some men are valueless. This is evident through history (some of the most evangelistic men were Calvinists).

    I suspect tge actual answer is in how men hold these doctrines. Spurgeon commented that to him Calvinism was the gospel. But in context of that statement he was expkaining that this was how he understood the gospel.

    To some (many it seems) Calvinism is the gospel in a different way - an ungodly way that replaces Christ with ideas about the mind of God.

    So my conclusion is that some Calvinists rely on human wisdom and philosophies to save then, believing they are saved through an acquisition of knowledge while not recognizing thus belief.

    And this applies to some non-Calvinisrs as well. They bear ungodly fruit because they walk in darkness. Many will, I believe, hear those words "I never knew you".
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,

    Nope...He was saying that when fully expanded it covered all the heart teachings of scripture.

    It might seem that way to you, but then again you have posted you severe dislike for Calvinists right here on this board. So we cannot view you as an objective source, can we?


    [QUOTE]So my conclusion is that some Calvinists rely on human wisdom and philosophies to save then, [/QUOTE]
    I have not met any Calvinists who do what you claim.This seems to be in your mind.

     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC

    [quote]Is this the effect of your position? When I look at Calvinism “on the ground” (rather than from academia) it is apparent to me that Calvinists have in a large part earned the reputation as hateful, prideful, and arrogant. But why does the doctrine produce such fruit[/quote]

    Another attack by our graceful friend?:Redface:Redface:Redface
    Looks like a pattern is beginning to emerge:Sick:Sick:Sick
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2019
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  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    And one of Al Mohler’s primary teachers... along with Francis Shaffer
     
    #7 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yes - Shaffer.

    I can think of a very long list of godly Calvinists and non-Calvinists. I wonder why we have so many bad ones now. Why are the "heros" of the Christian faith (regardless of soteriological positions) heros of the past? Why this obsession with Christian philosophy when people are dying without the gospel?
     
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Apparantly, you believe doctrine matters. Those that hold to the doctrines of grace believe doctrine matters.

    It is a problem to think you know what motivates another person's (or group of Christisns) beliefs. You, and others here, are assuming the worst possible motives. You assume those who disagree with you on doctrine are "hateful, prideful and arrogant" and condemn them as false prophets believing ungodly doctrine.

    It had been my experience that those who cannot engage scripture in a respectful and intellectually honest way will resort to name calling and character attacks in an attempt to discredit those they disagree with.

    This OP will accomplish nothing but further the animosity already present.

    Peace to you
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    We have to be able to take and discuss criticism and need to learn from what others have observed.

    This applies to me as well. I studied theology and found it was very easy for me to get caught up in various views. I found (and still find) theological development and diversity both interesting and edifying. But, while important, it is not the primary concern of a believer or of discipleship.

    Discipleship involves learning about Christ, granted. But its goal is to become more like him. This was not always my goal when debating other believers, but it should have been.

    This is one reason that this thread has not focused on Calvinists. As stated, I use Calvinists as an example because in terms of the 5 points I belong to that category of Christian.

    The OP is nothing but a call to self-inspection (not only to my fellow "Calvinists" but in general).

    Looking back we see Christians of all "camps" contending for the Christian faith. More and more now we see Christians contending for their theological dispositions.

    The crux of the matter is not how Calvinistic or Arminian one us, but how much like Christ they are. That is where we should set our eyes - upon Him.
     
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  11. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Sorry I didn't catch this before.

    You seem to be creating a false dichotomy. I hold to the doctrines of grace. I hold to the 5 points of Calvinism.

    My questions are for me just as much as for anyone else.
     
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, it would seem to me a waste of time to try to prove I'm not hateful, prideful and arrogant. Even if I tried, the assumption would be that I'd be distinguishing myself from others that are hateful, prideful and arrogant. I don't concede the premise.

    I'd much rather discuss the meaning of scripture in the context it was written. I'm willing to be convinced, but I tend to not to engage folks who start with the premise I'm an ungodly false prophet.

    I honestly don't think I need to discuss that kind of criticism, though I have learned alot about how people chose to debate issues.

    Peace to you
     
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  13. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I don't think that one can prove they are not hateful, prideful and arrogant except through action. And even here we are human, so the traits may not define who we are.

    I think you may have misunderstood the premise. It is about how we (Calvinists and non-Calvinists) hold our philosophical views, our understandings, and our theological distinctive.

    I also enjoy discussing the meaning of Scripture within the context it is written.

    I am not sure who started on the premise that you are an "ungodly false prophet", but there is a "report" button at the bottom of the dialogue section. You should report the member (if it happened on the Baptist Board).

    If you are implying that such issues (how one holds doctrine) should be taboo then I strongly disagree. But if you are simply saying that you are not inclined to discuss the topic then that is a personal decision. I think that it needs to be discussed. Like James White mentioned, we (at least I) cannot escape the label "Calvinist" because I hold to the doctrines of grace. But there is a segment within those who would share my view that are giving the whole a bad name. Are they the majority? I hope not. But their existence cannot simply be ignored.
     
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  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It was your post that stated this. .he read it like I did
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So you read the post that I saw also.Did you remember where he thanked the baptist board for silencing those in opposition to his posts?
    Do you recall which thread it was on?
    I am looking for it.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    That stated "he read it like I did"?

    I can find it if you give me a few words. I am not sure what you think you read but it definitely was not me thanking the BB for silencing anyone (any member or former member). That just does not make sense to me.
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes....you did read it.
     
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  18. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Is this what you are talking about? (I think it is the one @canadyjd was referencing, although I think he thought I was calling all Calvinists ungodly false teachers):

     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You said we were false prophets and teachers not because of doctrine, but the fruit that was produced by it.
    You thanked baptist board for silencing your critics....yes...he read the same post.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    @Iconoclast ,

    This is getting very silly. You are a grown man trying to tell another man what he said. I can't even follow your conversation.

    I can tell you that thanking the Baptist Board for silencing anyone does not make a bit of sense to me. For that alone I can assure you I did not post such a thanks.

    I do not sleep type, but I have had dreams that I thought was real. Are you sure you were not reading while tired for fatigued?
     
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